Fast

The scary kind

That seems like a fair observation. I would imagine it has a lot to do with trying to adjust to a new environment whereas the people who have been around are adjusted to the social traits of the group of people they hang out with and learn to care more about the person as what they are above skydiving rather than the person as a skydiver? Regardless I don't think many differences qualify as a "special" difference. A difference is a difference is a difference. Perception of what level it is or what it means is just that a perception. The "I'm cool because I skydive" feeling is just a natural part of society. Some people look for ways to differentiate themselves forfrom others so they can stand out in a crowd. I would imagine that newer jumpers (yeah, I qualify for this, though I don't perscribe to this behavior) use it asin order to seem cool and it helps motivate them or something (people have lots of different motives). More experienced people who have been around longer have gone through this phase, or seen those who have, and don't see it as a way to stand out from the crowd, they just are skydivers and don't care what it means to everyone else. Of course, thats just my opinion. I could be wrong. (-d.m.) (edit: wrong word) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

They are getting much better at working with them though. I have heard many more stories of ISPs cooperating fully with law enforcment in the last few years. AOL... who knows. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I think that there are some subtle differneces in the way skydivers behave. If you want to talk about it on the moleculer level there are studies that have shown some form of corelation between genetics and risk taking. One abstract from the American Journal of Medical Genetics dated apr-04 suggests that there is some form of correlation between it but it only accounts for a very small portion of the population. Either way, it seems it will be a while before there is any proof to the positive or negative on that topic. The things that I think I see as diferences between skydivers and wuffos are behavioral. I don't think they have a lot to do with genetics or anything like that. You see more of a difference (edit: Difference between those around you and what is percieved as average for a group of people... think of it as a similar minded individuals taken from the population as a whole that form a concentration) because we are gathering people that all have some similar traits, a predisposition to risk for example. This causes a concentration of people with some similar attitudes about different things. Then on top of that you throw on learned behavior. When you first walk onto a DZ you don't really know what its like to be around, after a person gets used to the people, activities, and behaviors that appear to be normal for the environment they adopt the ones that fit within thier overall social mentality. Skydivers are differnt than quite a bit of the population in the amount of direct risk to life that we are willing to take to have fun, but I don't think that it is absent in the rest of society. I'm sure other "risky" activities have similar social behavior traits that skydivers do. To try and stereotype all skydivers into a few categories is a bit beyond possible. Our ages range from young to old, income levels range from "work to skydive" to those who have lots of disgressionary income. Professions include just about everything. Either way, to say that we as a social unit are not somewhat different than the greater society as a whole is just the mind trying to fit in with the rest of the world. Social groups within society do function differently and it does not mean that we are differnt from everyone else on the "personal" level. (We are all people, but even people are different from each other.) To say that it is ego that makes people suggest that we are different is not addressing the fact that there ARE some differences between the mean of behavior of skydivers and the sociatal mean. To say this would suggest that it is a bad thing that we are different from our peers which is not true. Not being able to accept the difference between individuals and/or groups is what leads to discrimination and stereotyping to begin with. It is acceptable to look at a truthfull average inside a group, this is not a stereotype and is a valid way to look at differences between people. (A stereotype of a group is an oversimplification of the people that make up the group and is an unvarying description) So to say that skydivers ARE differnt than other people is true, everyone is differnt from everyone, if you want to look at us as a social group that is not a bad thing either as long as you avoid stereotyping us and consider us as individuals or as the mean behavior of the group. /rant? ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

After thinking about it I will admit to being hasty about what I said, though I think it is true that a good majority of the people don't really care about a lot of things and don't want to hear about them either. There are some of us who do (and I think people should ) have an inerest in whats going on in the world. Although I would percieve that a good portion of the population would have a hard time caring about and understanding a lot of the current issues I don't think that excusses the rest of us. Taking an active interest in the truth of what happens every day is good. I would go so far as to wager that we are already in a pseudo autocratic society. Most people are ignorant of politics, why else would we have to have advertising to get people to vote. Most people are happy to let government run its own course and not care about what decisions are really being made. They may raise concern in the aftermath of an election or when a major event occurs but they are still acting benign when it comes to thier part in determing the aim of the government. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

After reading this whole thread I think that this comes back to some of the same issues regarding overall enforcement of rules that people argue about. No one wants something to limit thier choices, even if it would help in some cases. Its similar to the arguments between who should enforce and make rules (USPA vs. FAA) Most of the arguments for unrestricted WL seem to come from people who would be pushing the limits of the proposed WL BSRs because they feel they are good enough to do it and why should they have been limited? It is clear that often people end up on canopies that they aren't ready for. Sometimes they do it themselves, sometimes its because they get advice from people who are not as in touch with the current student/low timer scene, etc. I have to agree that if a system was put in place to prevent people from jumping canopies they think they are ready for, but are not, it would help prevent some of the low hook turn deaths that we have every year. Is the freedom of the very rare few who do have the skill to progress faster than the norm worth the lives that are lost every year? I mean seriously, MOST people are right in the middle(Average) and are not skilled (or better than average) swoopers from day one. It just doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. The people who are truly gifted would learn faster on larger canopies anyways. I think there is too much downsizing that goes on for bad reasons. Most people haven't rung out the canopy that they are jumping and that just the simple truth. Its stupid to argue about the feasibility of any system. Just because something has _some_ complexity to it does not mean it wont be followed. It just needs to be presented in a straight forward matter with basic steps to follow. Generally the people who would be tasked with managing who can jump what (or has what canopy rating) are pretty smart. They are people who can pass AFFI courses and get other ratings. They know how the system works and most of them would be people who are already instructors. Don't discount anything based purely on complexity. When it comes down to it, any system leaves us with a USPA card that says what we can jump. Any DZ with a scale can look at a jumpers rig and see that they weight this and have this size canopy and compare that to a USPA card and see if the person can jump that rig. The complexity of determining what a person can jump or not only affects the instructors who receive the extra training on how to do it. There doesn't have to be any complex systems for manifest people to follow. Scale + Jumper + USPA Card = Decision, regardless of how we determine what WL a person can jump its that simple. A system has to be able to account for some of the things done to cheat it but it doesn't have to be perfect. If a person breaks the rules they pay the price, simple as that. RE: Driving fines... The reason that people keep on speeding is because they don't fear the penalties that are levied when you are caught speeding. I will garuntee you that if the fine for speeding was a 30 day suspension of lic or an excessive fine ($1000), a lot less people would get caught speeding because a lot less people would be doing it. When deciding to speed you way the consequences of getting caught with the benefits of the action (like most things.) Most people will accept a few hundred dollars in fines and slightly higher insurance to risk speeding. I think that most skydivers wouldn't accept a month off of jumping to risk jumping a canopy that was only slightly smaller than they one they have (because you wouldn't get away with a big jump in size.) This being the case we would have people following the rules. Ok, so there are non-uspa DZs that they can goto, well that isn't the case everywhere. I also imagine that if we don't stop breaking ourselves this way eventually there will be some lawsuit that puts us in the spotlight and the government would step in. I don't think that the jump from the USPA being what it is now to an official regulatory agency would be as hard as everyone assumes. I don't know, just some thoughts I have on the various things discussed in this thread. (BTW, if you want to be close minded about what I wrote because I'm only floating around 100 jumps go ahead but I think you miss the bigger picture of life when you do that. Disagree with the content not the person its comming from.) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I don't know about this whole argument. Honestly a person on the ground has a LOT more control over thier situation than a person in the air does. In aviation right of way goes to landing aircraft over those on the ground. I don't think that jumper2 is clear of responsibility for where he is going but I think everyone shares responsibility here. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

wow... some amazing pictures there... ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Yep... this HAS to be a troll. PLEASE don't feed the trolls. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I agree with that as well. I guess I just don't trust in most people to remain level headed about things and be rational if the situation/story/etc is not presented in an appropriate manner. I think that it is something (truth in government) we should strive for. It seems clear to me that we ought to know everthing that is going on, but it should come in moderation not in a lump sum. Which is where I think the government has a little bit of room to bend things comes into play. If every little crisis, problem, whatever was front page every day without some spin on it I think people would have a hard time digesting all of it or they would just ignore it. It is most certainly the case that the truth needs to come forward in a timely fashion in a manner that doesn't cause public hysteria, etc. I don't think that we should be giving up any of our decision making power in the bigger sense. I think on specific issues we have to leave the decision to the elected officials and take recourse regarding it as soon as that option becomes available. There has to be accountability for that actions that are taken by members of the government because there is no way that the public as a whole can make every decision. Either way it comes down to my conclusion that some bending of the truth is acceptable as long as the truth prevails in a reasonable timeframe. We have to know the underlying truths so that we are able to make educated decisions regarding voting and electing our governmental representatives. Re the original post: I don't know if I can give specific examples of when it is ok for government to lie to the people but I know that there are many that are used in personal situations. They come up when discussing Kant. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I am willing to give the government some room for bending the truth when it comes to overal public information. There are lots of things that the general people of america don't need to know about, don't need to hear the truth about, and really don't care about. There is some truth in the common phrase: "Ignorance is bliss" ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Yes please could you edit the first post with this. I share an office with some females who really would of been pissed if i was opening this kinda stuff. I started looking before reading the rest of the thread. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Thats the first thing that I was thinking when I read this. If she did any finding of herself like she said that she did I would think that she is a much different person now. She would be expecting differnt things and you might be too. I don't think that there is a problem with spending a bit of time with her to find out what went on at least. Go in with a neutral attitude and see what happens. I guess its akin to starting over at square one. Though depending on the circumstances of how she left I think that there is some cause for concern about why she would leave you hanging. (If thats what she did) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I have been able to hear at least somewhat different music because I switched to Sirius/xm. They still play a lot of the more popular stuff but they have channels that are dedicated to music that is not mainstream. I have to pay for it but screw hearing the same song every 2 hours (as it is on most radio these days) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Hmm... all i get is a 'home page parking' Dunno... ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Any pictures/vid that I have seen of GKs tandem jumping with a VIP there have been at least 2 video, the TM and like 3 others on the jump. So I don't think it was that out of the ordinary. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

0:12:1 Owe one for not making it in on a speedstar... 12 jumps... by sunday evening I was so dead tired I could barely eat dinner. Got pretty pissed at myself for making a few of the same mistakes a few too many times. Ahh well I guess... I need to improve on the problems not keep making them. Did my 100th too

If you can't get the web version to work you may not have Java installed. You can get it from sun ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Yeah, talked to him about sitting and got to make a jump with him recently.. Great coach. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

haha ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

The difference is that the DZ you have listed in your profile has a pretty proggresive training program that has gone through more adjustment than regular AFF programs. Its more time with an instructor and more guided in getting things together. Either way you have to have an instructor to sign off on the requirements for the Lic, its just at SDC the program is detailed out much more and longer than AFF so you get more exposure to different things. (Not to say other DZs have bad training) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I can be moved from "maybe" to "going" -GOT TO GOOOOOOOO-

~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

I have had to plane out over the top of someone before because they got in my way much too low for any types of turns. I choose a plane out at 6-8 feet over slaming into them head on. It was a slightly rough landing but everyone walked away from it. I was much too low to turn and there is only so much planning ahead you can do for people who are in the landing area. I only had to give it enough flare to clear thier head and still had enough speed left to have a decent landing. (Yelling proved to be useless even though I wear an open face helmet) ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

hahaha... shouldn't that go in the humps category? I'm in california so it wasn't me lol @ that... **TIME** for some reason i can't edit my post ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka