freeflyguy

Almost Working hard to get my Private, I have 32 hours. I'm being trained by family of the DZO and the DZO. Now If I can just weasle some twin otter time out of them :) I have a bit of Caravan time, well, not really, but right seat. Cool plane.

Yah, agreed. Anybody that can say "I have easily broken away my main during a high wind landing at the North Pole" has probably been around skydiving for a while. But that aint the half of it. If you have done a tandem you owe him your life. How about "Industry Inovator" instead of Newbie? But I doubt he cares anyway.

I'll give you my perspective. I started in June 2, years ago. When I first saw Andy Farrington falling out of the sky on a Velocity 96, it scared me, I thought he was dead. Then I heard his parachute was a third the size of the one I was learning one. I couldn't comprehend doing that. I figured it would take years and years and 6,000 jumps, like him, to fly something like that. Now, I am not quite to that size, I fly a 98, and it doesn't SEEM that small. I am new on it, and don't claim to know what he does. But it is interesting how a point of view can change with a bit of experience, knowledge, training and time.

XAOS-21 98 @ 2.1, or whatever else happens to be laying around the DZ I've been jumping a year and half, and have just under 600 jumps.

Now this is swooping. Should be cool. http://www.redbullbladeraid.com/

True, I Watched Andy Farrington and Shalan Alman jumping the XAOS 27 today. They were also ground launching them off a ski mountain this week. Rad video of that. They are heading for the bladerunning tomorrow, then to Venezuala for the swoop thing. Cool parachute. They seem to like it, think it has a longer surf, good openings too. They were dinking around, changing the trim a bit today. Just seeing what it would do if it were trimmed up a bit more. In that config, at similar wingloading it seemed to out drive the VX, in rear risers. Not a full review, but they do fly. j

I have seen the crossbraced tandem at our DZ. Velocity 111 with another guy doing a Mr.Bill off of him. Now that is wingloading.

Post the Video, if you dare. You will get a lot of help. Beyond that the most common thing I see is not finishing the flair. Force yourself to push those toggles to their limits on landing. Don't bow tie it, but as your feet get on the ground, don't forget to keep on going down with the toggles, until the canopy falls on your head. You see people all the time, as soon as they touch the ground, the toggles go up, and they fall down. I don't know if this is what you meant. But, as I always say, swooping is the same as any landing. Downwind, base, final, then complete the landing sequnce. It aint rocket science, and is not even as hard as landing a stinking Cessna. Just fly the canopy until it stops moving. j Oh, and no, I don't think anything is within driving distance from Oklahoma

I think you meant out of my element. Maybe I am, but discussion is what this forum is about. I just disagree with you. I believe if a person is interested in learning to swoop, he should learn as much as possible. The sooner the better. Waiting until he has 5 or 600 jumps and a wingloading of 1.7 to learn the dynamics of what is going on seems wrong. And as far as snap hooking, you earlier said that you believe a carve is safer on a larger canopy. I DO agree with you when you say a snap hook on a ligher wingloading is more dangerous than on a heavier loaded canopy, for the reasons you mentioned. I just don't think a snap hook is that great of a manuever anyway. Looks impressive, gets your heart in your throat, but takes away the safety margin of a slower turn. You also mentioned the jury is out on whether or not a snap hook or carving front riser will build more speed. I disagree. I think the jury has made up it's mind. That is my grain of salt. Carry on. j

Full Blown Hook? Don't do them anyway, the pro's don't. You all know a slow carve is better for building speed. There is a place for a quick snap hook, but that isn't what swooping is about. It is more of a move to get you out of trouble. But still dangerous in any context. So good 'ol Bob can just tear it up learning to surf his Tri, with progressive carving riser turns.

Oh for crying out loud. Quit getting mushy. Yah, he had a nice post, but he lands like a seal sliding across the snow on his belly. Everybody knows that.

I might as well chime in. As far as the original question goes. My thoughts, It's never to early to start to learn to swoop. I'll explain that. As far as I am concerned, all landings are the same. Might sound weird, but what I am really talking about is the fact that on every landing, you make your final turn, set up, flare at the right time, finish your flair, and land. Whether that Final turn is a 270 intended to plane out for a nice surf on a small canopy, or it is the Final leg on a large canopy, it all ends the same. With proper technique in the entire landing sequence. Go check out a big DZ, people that dont want to learn to "swoop" land like drunk geese all over the place. It is scary. If you do learn, as a student, and then as you downsize how to land properly, you will allready know how to surf and in essence, the beginings of how to Swoop. There are many that will never do a 180 or 270 to final, that is fine, but they should still be able to land there canopy properly. Which, on anything ZP loaded over 1.1 will include at least a little swoop. The higher the wing loading, the longer the surf. Straight in landings included. As far as learning to "hook" ( I don't much care for the term, in this context), that is a different subject, but I do disagree. If you want to learn to hook turn, or better said, learn to build speed for you landing, begin learning on the canopy you are on. I was swooping the pond on a sabre at 1.1 . I would never tell anybody to wait until a wing loading of 1.6 to learn a high speed landing technique. I do agree with what was said about a higher wingloading leaving a larger margin for error, sort of. I like that about my XAOS, I can turn way high, and still make it plane out on the ground, where I want it too. But on the other hand, that time I spent with a wingloading of 1.1 trying to dial it in is Invaluable in how I fly today. Start now, if you are going to do it. Do not downsize first, then start. Pain will soon follow, if you subscribe to that theory. j

So the props would have bent forward if it was a power on crash?

Practice up high is good advice. Also, I would tend to start with slowly letting them up a bit higher than has been suggested. Slow, yes, but get a feel for what your canopy, and wingloading is going to do. So what if you let them up to high, you will know it, you will loose the speed a little too early, but it will tell you where to do it the next time, and it will be safer. Don't rush to find the perfect point to get out of the risers. Time is on your side, if you're careful. j

Another thing the putting the toggles up might be. If you nail the turn, on a not too heavy loaded canopy, after you bring it out with the toggle input, you can have enough speed to be in full flight, with toggles all the way up, but still surfing along the ground, or climbing. I got that way on my sabre, if I hit it right. It is hard to keep it on the ground, it want's to climb on you. There are a couple Really good canopy pilots here that have actually got into double fronts DURING the surf, to keep a student canopy sized main on the ground. Pretty cool.

I'd have to say the cross wind too. If you had shifted in the harness, or given it toggle input, one side of the canopy would have dipped a bit for the turn. So it is likely a gust. On a no wind day, there is often wind from somewhere. That is why they say 'light and variable'. Even a couple mile an hour gust would push you sideways enough to notice. Good job landing it though. Just keep flying and all is well. Nice on the wing loading trick too. Some heavy bell fliers here have threatend to put me on a diet, so I can keep up with them. I haven't committed to that yet though. I'll just sit with them, or better yet learn to slow down more on my head.

That's funny. As for me, I'm cold, hurt my ankle, and am working on my pilot's license. I think posts will go up as the mercury does.

Mind the Gap.

The other proswooper at Kapow can go for miles on distance on a Velocity loaded at about 2.4 or 2.5. Just like the energizer bunny, going and going and going... Farther than Andy can go on the Xaos at a higher loading.

One of our pro swoopers has a XAOS 69 loaded at near 3. He has used it well in competition, but feels it is overloaded, so he is backing off to likely use only the 77 in competition, even for the speed portion. Nothing Scientific, but that would put him saying that 3.0 is too heavy, and the 77 at about 2.7 is more the upper range of the sweet spot on the XAOS-21. On my XAOS at 2.1, it is not overly radical, for that kind of a landing. It comes withing 10 feet of a full stop at the end of the swoop (meaning I have to slide/run out those ten feet). That on no wind, and if I shut it down the way I am supposed too.

I think Chucks last post sums up what I am talking about. To pull a fast canopy out of a dive onto plane/swoop, is a totally different animal then landing straight in on rears, if I had too. As it is. If I nail my 270 I can almost go coast to coast on our pond. That means, that I am starting to plane out over land anyway. So for me to use rear risers and try to get that extra bit of distance that would give me the full coast to coast treatment of the pond isn't worth the risk. I would be trying to pull it out of the dive over land. If I miss. Say goodbye to one piece femurs, or worse. I don't seriously compete, but I love to swoop, and learn from some of the best. Besides I am still exploring my new canopy and smaller size. So, for me, I will just leave the rear riser swoops to "those guys". Learning about them, and what is going on is great for anybody though. My opinion. J

cool

Some one said it best when they said *cringe* Rear riser swoops are Very dangerous. True, to win at PPPB in distance, you have to do them. It is just something for very advanced canopy pilots. I am a pretty good canopy pilot, but I won't even bother trying to land that way. Unless I had too. Then I could, But It would be a life saving thing. Not a swoop thing. Anyway, good question. If you look in some of the back threads, like Chuck said, you can get more of the dynamics of what is going on when you are planeing out and swooping on the rears. Just be careful. J

Crossbraced, eliptical and ZP are all EVIL. He hee. I love my XAOS at 2.1. But I do agree with Lisa's first post, mostly. I really think a person should BE ABLE to fly the snot out of a lighter loaded canopy, before he goes smaller. The time to learn a 270, and all that accompanies it, is when you have a bit more margin for error. That said, I love the carving 270's starting at 700 Feet WAHOO!!! j

Just the opposite. Seems most people downsize, THEN try to learn the "cool stuff". When you perfect it (if there is such a thing) on your present canopy, then you will be really ready to downsize. That is much better than the other way around. j