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Trying to close out Height so if I missed something please kick in a reference. I welcome any critiques. Previous Height REF- DZ post #62990 https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024687 Previous Height Update REF- DZ post #63008 https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024826 Sorry for the long post but just trying to be exhaustive on height.. Height Update Final Verified Standing Observations: Flo - 6'0 in her interview Flo - 6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54 Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno Tina - 6' second interview Philly Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1+ Denis Lysne - ticket agent - 5'10 or 5’11 Nancy House - No recorded statement of height Likely Standing Observation : Alice - 6'1 Verified Seated Observations: Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10 Robert Gregory - 5'9 Labissoniere - 5'10 Cord Spreckel - 5'10 Ckret- 5'10 to 6'1 Overall take on height : Cooper’s Height is clearly segmented. With the exception of Denis Lynse, those that observed Cooper standing put him at 6' - 6’1. Tina in her initial Reno interview provided a range of 5’10-6' but ultimately provided no range just a flat 6' in her final Philly interview. Hal, Flo and Alice all at one time put Cooper at 6’1. Flo revised her initial reported 6’1 in her notes lowering him to 6ft from her SEA- TAC interview. Flow and Alice’s estimates of height were in all likelihood provided within 1 hour of being in Coopers presence. Where Tina's initial recall on height was provided more than 3+ hours after last contact. Those that observed Cooper seated place him at roughly 5’10. Robert Gregory the only witness whom put him on the low side of 5’9 noted that he observed Cooper in a posture of being sunk-down in his seat, slouched. Bill Mitchell whom provided a range of 5’9-5’10 predominantly observed Cooper from the vantage of looking across one empty seat, an isle, and past Tina to see Cooper seated in the middle seat. There is nothing that indicates Bill observed Cooper other than form a seated position. Both Robert Gregory and Labissoniere observed Cooper while they went to the lavatory. Estimated Duration and Quality of Observation Hal Williams – 5 to 35+ minutes between 2:05- 2:40+ – Observation was people watching. This is almost exclusively an observation. This appears to be an idle moment where Hal was not occupied with servicing customers. Standing by the gate Hal is observing the passengers to pass the time, “people watching”. His full attention appears to have been on Cooper as he singled Cooper out from the crowd specifically for his dress and for his demeaner. This means Hal established a base line observation of the crowd and isolated Cooper by his attire and by his behavior relative to the crowd. Possibly of all the witnesses, Hal’s observation on Cooper’s height was the longest. We do not know how much time Hal himself was at the gate nor do we know how much time Cooper was at the gate. The perspective of Hal’s observation was relative to others and without a scale distortion from inside the cabin. There was potentially an observation relative to Himself as Cooper exited the gate area at boarding, or handed Hal his ticket to rip out a stub. Denis Lynse – 2-5 minutes. Observation was a service interaction. Sometime after 2pm and likely concluding within 3-5 minutes. Denis has a perspective relative to oneself at a distance of 2-3 ft form behind a ticket counter. The position of a ticket agent is about service and thru put. You process passengers and collect fares. There was a “Long line” noted as having formed prior to this interaction with Cooper. Lynse in qualifying a Long line in his statement was likely running behind and very expeditious in handling Cooper. As lines build there is a natural urgency to process individuals quicker. This interaction began with a greeting, Cooper stating destination, Denis asking is that one way or round trip, Any bags, your name, that’ll be $20, Cooper reaching into pocket- billfold and providing exact change, one of them filling out the Ticket name, adding Dan Cooper to a flight manifest, print/stamp /issue the ticket, concluding with Denis directing the passenger to the gate. I think it is safe to presume that under normal conditions this interaction could have been accomplished well under 5 minutes and under rushed conditions likely between 2-3 minutes. This was not as much of an observation as it was an ordinary customer interaction. Flo 1 – 5+ minutes - Observation was a Greeting, conversation & fitting harness. Flo’s perspective was on the tarmac - in the open, upon approach and relative to oneself. Greeting of 2 -10+ seconds @ boarding Asking questions while putting on Harness/parachute maybe within the 2 -5+ minute range Cooper was putting on the parachute in front of Flo and likely in front of Alice. Flo may have been asking him questions about his final destination and if the girls were going with him or could get off. This conversation may have occurred while he was putting on the harness for the chute which may be why she indicates his attention dropped from her questioning. Also there are several moments where Cooper may have been standing in her presence. When she observed him acting child like, when he told Flo to pick up the ransom, when he reached into his pocket and tried to hand flow a tip. After he had put on the harness and back parachute he likely did not take a seat immediately. Tina 1- 3+ minutes, she observed Coops standing 3 times minimum. 1) In her initial statement Tina said she only saw him stand when he went to the lavatory. It’s possible she was sitting next to him, isle seat, and had to get up to let him out for his trip to the lavatory. 2) In her second interview she stated that they both went to the airstairs control panel at takeoff. Standing next to him Tina gave him instructions and they both took their seats. 3) Last observation was seeing him “standing in the isle” as she drew the curtain and pleaded with him to take the bomb or disarm it. Although this is at a distance and presumed under dim lighting conditions. There are also moments of Tinas interaction which have enough movement to be interpreted as not likely being conducted form a seated position. Wrapping the bank bag, cutting up the parachute, inspecting the 4 chutes, there is quite a bit of movement in these actions. It is hard to imagine removing a parachute and paracord from a container without standing up. further it is hard to imagine wrapping 14 feet of paracord around a bag top to bottom side to side, form a seated position. I personally have an image of him kneeling in the isle to cannibalize these shroud lines with his pocket knife. But that’s my imagination. Tina may have seen him stand during these actions. Also his isle became quite crowded as Tina brought him more stuff, his Case, a harness, 4 parachutes ,the ransom, an unpacked parachute. It’s natural to think that he may have stood up spread these items out a bit and organize himself infront of Flo or Tina. The unpacked parachute came to rest draped over Row 17 across the isle and one row up form 18E which Cooper occupied. A Back type parachute came to rest across the isle in seat 18B. there is no question Cooper stood to move these items but when during Tina’s presence or after she went to the Cabin. I also imagine, that after the harness and back parachute were on Cooper may have stood for a while or that he would have changed his posture and sat more upright on the edge of the seat rather than relaxing with the back chute on against the seat back. This changes the way in which Tina would observe his posture from being slouched to upright. Alice’s Observation may have been close to what Flo observed 1-5+ min If Flo’s interview is sequential then Alice may have been present for Florence’s questioning of Cooper on destination and if the stewardesses were going /could exit. Like Flo, Alice may have observed Cooper standing while putting on the parachute. Seated Observations – Bill Mitchell – Observation intermittent over nearly the entire duration of the flight Observation was looking across an isle and past Tina. He was not suspicious of Cooper but took an interest in him. Bill himself may have only observed Cooper while he himself was seated. Mitchell is 6’2” – 220lbs and noted that Cooper seemed smaller than him that he felt he could have yanked him out of his seat if he wanted. Cooper had a medium build. Robert Gregory 1-2 minutes Observed of Cooper in passing as he went to the lavatory. Had one hard look at him when deplaning at distance of 4+ rows. Noted Cooper appeared to be a short individual but that his posture was slouched down in seat. Labissoniere 2-5 minutes Observed Cooper in passing several as he went to the lavatory. He was blocked once coming out to the lavatory and observed an interaction between Tina, the Cowboy and Cooper. Took notice of Cooper. He is reported as having some suspicion of Cooper. Cord Spreckle – 2-4 minutes. Observed Cooper from where he was seated which was the left of the plane two rows from the rear. May have further observed Cooper when he moved seats forward while circling SEA-TAC. 10 minutes after takeoff he thought there was a problem. He indicated some suspicion in seeing Tina on the phone constantly. My take on height is still that Cooper's range is 5'11-6'1, my sweet spot is that he was 6ft. I have significantly greater confidence in those witnesses that observed him standing vs seated estimates of his height. Hal seems to have had the best observation with Flo placing second followed by Alice or Tina, IMO.

I don't think the ICS matches pair with Cooper. I think a middle aged man, a life long smoker, in 71, that guy has a personalized zippo with his name engraved on it. That's a must have trinket of that era, one of those things a sweetheart would give you. Now here Coops is going into this job and he's not about to use a personalized item so he acquires some matches on his way. Maybe he's concerned that the ICS matchbook has some faint association with someone or some place. Possibly the matches belong to a cabbie, a bellhop, a clerk, an associate, an accomplice, some non- random individual whom Coops pinched them from. If there was no writing within or he genuinely was unconcerned with fingerprints then I lean toward the matches having some vague symbolic association to an earlier time for Coops. In his mind he panics a bit seeing them tossed out. Coops knows he took those from a such and such, or a here and there, I can't leave that as evidence! Maybe he did go to a restaurant for the Sky Chef, or Tina did grabbed them for him, who knows. At least there is no Agency confirmation that I have seen within the 302's that the Portland airport had a Sky Chef restaurant... No matter what Coops is not bringing out a zippo with his name engraved on it to hand over to some stew. This is just a though, not assigning a statistical likelihood of this.

My take is that this is a visual absurdity. Painted tin cans! If Gunther wanted to try overt humor he could have wrote it were a bundle of steely-dans that were observed. I view this line as Gunther's compositional wink wink to the reader. That he's typing away well into the evening and has a good chuckle at putting down this line. I chose to think that this is a tell.

JAG- thank you so much for the synopsis... I take back ever saying -at best - Gunther's work could be a "plausible half-truth" and strongly move his work to being at best "random coincidence". The tell, the break in reality.

I see the NO - but I do not see a context here. No what? No - lets not show them, No - its not been done, No - need to follow up we did that, No - it's his, No - it's not his.. whats the timing of this NO in the margin is it 72 , 82, 92...? context would help rule this out. I trust your judgment and understand there may be more in the record you've seen, but I have to keep this open and not discount it. On Palm prints from arm rest, I have seen this quoted in here sever times over the years, but I've not seen a source that says a palm print(s) came specifically form the arm rest. If you have this ref please share. I'm going to circle back on fingerprints over the next few weeks but will post an update on height this weekend/sun.

This is worth getting right.....being exhaustive. We don't even know the message of what is written on the magazine parts!! Was this evidence destroyed for having no evidentiary value, was this magazine and parts retained in the evidence files for 50+ years? Looks like these prints were used to rule out Webber, possibly others. I have to agree with the torn magazine angle. My thinking is that he tore this out, made notes stuffed the notes back in the magazine. When he was leaving for the jump he took the magazine because of prints with him, but the notes fell out into the seat back. Somewhere there is a unicorn of an inflight magazine missing parts that match up with the evidence. We need to stay on this..

Your potentially kicking out the most important evidence of the case... Coopers prints!! You have to show me how they were eliminated.

Show me it wasn't.. how, where, ref this Fly. I have not sorted out the fingerprints, maybe this is the next project, maybe someone has worked these out and would be kind enough to share... I think the writing and magazine parts were passed by witnesses and they affirmed it was likely Coopers. I believe this because the prints and palm prints of the magazine parts were specifically used to eliminate Webber. I need to sort this out, but the prints build,using loose numbers here. At one point the agency has 66 prints at another point a few years later they have like 77 prints. My guess is that the 24-5 prints from the magazine parts combined with the prints for the common areas settled at a final total of 77 prints. Again, I need to sort this out. Never the less, Cooper was seen writing by several witnesses and palm prints were from these magazine parts. DB-32393 DB - 28129 DB-21286

Agreed, Coops could written in the matchbook after retrieving, but it would be smarter at some point if Coops just wrote on an inflight magazine. Please - Show me within the record how the parts of a magazine were a false lead... As I have an understanding of these prints here, it appears to me that the agency seemed to anchor on these palm prints over the next 40 years as a primary source of eliminating candidates. The prints from these materials were of value and may have been the primary elimination prints! Maybe someone has worked out the full scope of print sources and is willing to share??? Tina did relay - but this does not mean he did not write instructions down or that she did not read off instructions form him to the the pilots. The fact still remains that the agency is crediting in pg. DB-32393 that as many as 4+ witnesses saw him write.

I take it that Tina struck the last match? If there were writing therein I think it would have registered with her looking at an empty cover. If she saw the matches being used for notes then I'd have to believe she would have interpreted the action of taking the matches as understandable. The way I read her statement about Coops removing the matches form the trash is that it is a little bewildering to her. Rat was aware of the matches during the interview saying Coops was -especially careful to see that nothing was left behind taking the matchbook cover Coops did write on the plane there is evidence of this.. pg. DB-32393

"fake smoking".. hahahahaha... You should start passing out ciggs and calling bluffs on that thinking.

I agree 100%, no one is going to tug at the matches and unravel anything. Never the less, the matches, if true, are part of the mosaic of who Cooper was. When Cooper is identified, I'd like to believe there was an explanation as to how they fit in. I'm sure the Gunther folks would love it one day if a Cooper proxy is found and one of his two kids happens to be a high-school drop out...!

I got ya, but I think your assigning way to much ubiquity to ICS matches. ICS in no way could flood a market like AOL, a fortune 50 company. In 1971 its like saying Ford vs. ICS, those two advertising budgets do not comport. I believe there are limits and conditions on where these ICS matchbooks can exist. I don't know what we can get from him having ICS matches, but I'd like to think that there is a way that these fit into the mosaic of who Cooper was... The agency deduced Coops may have eaten at the airport because he possessed skychef matches. My most optimistic fit on ICS, if true, is that Coops was within proximity of a dropout. Or maybe this is just Rataczak taking a character jab at Coops....

Maybe its cut and dry- just the utility of matches.. I try to restrain form psychoanalysis in here, but I can't help think that it is the action of Cooper taking theses matches, of him possessing these matches that may be of some significance. I smoked for years. I know that matches aggregate, they pair with locations. ICS may pair with a gas station, a dive bar but they would not pair with a country club. I wonder if there is a demographic overlap of individuals whom would select ICS matches and smoke Raleigh's. Difficult thoughts. The wishful thoughts are that the ICS matches, if true, indicate someone within proximity to Coops was a dropout, because coops was no dope..!

It's logical, but its hard for me to digest Tosaw's claim that Tina grabbed the skychef matches and this detail slipped past the agency, even the ICS matches got by them if true.... Do you think Tina affirmed her statements in the final interview memos? There must have been some point where an Agent sat down with her over the next few years while showing her photos and as a mater of procedure reviewed the November and December interviews with her for accuracy...! Not seen this in the 302's, possibly one of the teletypes that were flying around is an affirmation of a review of the interviews by Tina.??? Maybe those details just weren't important enough.

I should look up the exact wording so forgive me but Tina attributes two matchbooks as coming from Coop. She only ever identifies skycheif.

Your killing it... nice clip. What do you think the likelihood of any confirmation of that to come from future 302's.

Ah, I have avoid these materials, I wanted to read them desperately for years but saw them as pollutants. I think I have built up a tolerance now I shall give them a read. Just off the bat Tosaw's writes that Tina closed the front door when the second officer closed it. Lights on, Lights off, what do we gain if they were on or off...? is it really worth sorting out...? Is Tosaw also the sole source on the ICS matchbook? Nothing in the 302's refers to ICS matches. I should have asked this long ago, thank you.

What is your reference on Tina stating The bag was dragging on the ground between Coopers legs. I've not heard this before, but I'm only up to date on the first 72 - 302's... Thank you for posting this a few of us have a real thirst for this type of content. Sorry I missed the Q&A, maybe next time.

Height Update 1 – I have only posted new references on observations of height since Monday. Updated Verified Standing Observations: Flo - 6'0 - Ref 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 1682 Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno. - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 26969, Tina - 6' second interview Philly - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 26977, 26978 Likely Standing Observation : Alice - 6'1 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 1682 Updated Seated Observations: Robert Gregory - 5'9 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 2040 or Cooper-28464, DB Cooper-22340, DB Cooper-14876, 22507 Labissoniere - 5'10 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 28451, 28452 Looking to be exhaustive.If anyone has additional references that deal with observations of Cooper seated or standing please post.

Thank you for the background, VBA scraping eBay was the direction I was heading on this. May not hurt to do for redundancy. Good to know someone's done this and is keeping tabs. Have you heard of anyone in the Vortex looking into the Bureau of Engraving and Printing to see if they have a data dump available for the bills they have destroyed? Maybe that's obtainable with an inquiry or possibly under FOIA ?

Thank you so much!! Just to ask, have run the the star notes through ebay's completed listings before?

Anyone have an xls or cvs file of the star notes and full ransom list that they would be willing to share.... much appreciated

Statement on Height REF: DropZone Post CKret Jan 28, 2008

Thank you for kicking in the base descriptions, lets keep going deeper on this. Verified Standing Observations: Flo - 6'0 in her interview - Ref 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 1682 Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 1678 Flo -6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54- Ref- Flight Teletype Pg. 90 Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno. - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 26979, 26976 Tina - 6' second interview Philly - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 2671 Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1 + - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 30701 Denis Lysne - Ticket agent - 5'10 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 5479 Nancy House - NO statement on HEIGHT GIVEN Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 30887 Unverified Standing Observation: Alice - 6'1 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 26993 Seated Observations: Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 28459 Robert Gregory - 5'9 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 2040 Labissoniere - 5'10 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 28451 Cord Spreckel - 5'10 - Ref- 302 Pg. DB Cooper – 1685