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It's worth noting at this point that we see similar discussions on the incidents forum fairly often. Someone will do a low turn and break or kill themselves, and discussion will ensue. Fairly often (twice I can think of on the forum and twice in person) a conversation like this happens: JoeNewbie:"Why are you trying to analyze this to death? He was an idiot and he turned too low. He shouldn't have been on that canopy." JimOldTimer: "Well Joe you have a tiny canopy and you've had some issues. Maybe you should get some coaching to prevent something like this." JoeNewbie: "I am NOTHING like that guy! That's ridiculous! I am far more competent/skilled/experienced. You're nuts." Then a week/a month/a year later we read about how Joe broke himself (or killed himself) under that too-small canopy. One guy (this was someone I knew at my DZ) was like this. He kept downsizing until he could barely land his canopy, then he'd crow about how he was a good canopy pilot because he successfully jumped a dangerous canopy. Someone else would break their leg; wouldn't faze him. "Well he was an idiot." Someone else would die. "Well I'm not going to make such a stupid mistake." He got grounded at his home DZ for one sketchy landing too many. Then we made a trip to Eloy, and he showed up, telling us triumphantly "I'm not grounded HERE!" He started jumping. On one landing he landed too close to the mockup and took out Airspeed. Bryan Burke yelled at him, but that wasn't enough. On the last load of the day we were on jump run and we got a hold due to an injury on the field. No one had to even ask who it was. He ended up with an ambulance ride and a badly broken thumb. That still wasn't enough. I didn't see his final jump, but it put him in the hospital for months. Last I heard of him, they think he will walk again with lots of rehab. And now he becomes the example that the next jumper can point at and say "I am NOTHING like him! I'm far more competent." These forums are largely bullshit - people getting into stupid arguments over abortion, or how other rigs are deathtraps but THEIR rig is super, or what would happen if you towed the DZ with a tractor. But occasionally (and mostly in the Incidents forum) there's something that happens that you can learn from. Even if you are positive that you are nothing like that poor former skydiver. If there's anything good that might come from Billy's death, it's that - a chance to reflect on how something like this can happen, even to someone who believes themselves to be a safe and competent gun owner, and regularly explains that.

Unfortunately another clarification of free speech is needed:

Welcome aboard. I, for one, am willing to register all of my guns, pay a fee for any new or used guns I buy, give up guns that I never use and will likely never use again and and submit to a psychological exam (provided it wasn't administered by woodpeckers or grey digger squirrels) if by joining in it kept just one parent from learning that their nine year old was murdered by a bullied, mentally tortured, maniac at school that day. Maybe it would be pointless, maybe it would be wrong. But it's time to do something, to give up something, even if it's wrong.

A few years back I was one who sided with the anti gun control folks. I don't know the answer but this has to stop.

So since you're presenting as a republican, posting exactly the same sort of stuff about guns as he did, and stirring the pot, you're a democrat?

Right. When you do it - decide he is a "murdering scumbag" who "fucks with people and their shit constantly" and "his entire family . . .are all democrats" or some such - it's perfectly justified, even though you don't know his voter registration or what happened that day. But when others do it to you, it's unreasonable. Treat others as you want to be treated.

Another loss. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/27/nyregion/trump-letitia-james-ny.html

I very much doubt that. No one goes into anything - owning a gun, driving drunk, jumping a small canopy, teaching gun safety, teaching skydiving - thinking "hey, I don't care who is injured or who dies, I just wanna do it." They think "I can handle it. As long as it's me, my skill, competence and wisdom will keep anyone else from getting injured or killed." All the above people have been wrong at one time or another, of course. But that doesn't mean they don't care about who lives or dies. It MIGHT mean they overestimate their own competence - but that's very different.

I've got a boat too It has better fuel economy than all of your boats and planes put together.

This is Speaker's Corner; it gets hot here. If you find yourself getting hot, take a cooler. If you want to turn up the heat, come out with arguments blazing, or really get someone to cry uncle, maybe take a cooler (this is Speaker's Corner, after all). And needling is just tacky We're not anti-gun, we're not pro-gun, as a website. We are pro following the no personal attacks rules. Yelling is just fine, but understand that people will probably think less of you for it, and some of them will probably call you out for it. As people, we’re all over the map, and that’s OK The words aren't always the best-chosen, but neither are mine. Live with it, and pretend your feisty aunt is listening to the conversation. Wendy P.

Your credibility goes down with every post you make, and that one is a prime example. You'd do better to just stop digging.

This 1969 filed patent matches the TISB particles better than the Rem Cru patent.. 70-90% Titanium with Antimony electrodes in a capacitor.. https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3564348.html Doesn't mean Cooper worked at SPRAGUE ELECTRIC CO. Sprague Capacitors were used everywhere... Having mustard on your tie doesn't mean you worked in a mustard factory. So, a TISB particle in about 85/15 is not unique to Rem-Cru from 1965-1971. There are many sources for TISB particles, alloyed or not.

I think we can now conclude that this statement is a lie. Alex wants his guns, no matter what, no matter who dies. Even Billy's wife and daughters, just more sacrifices to the second amendment. I take back my statement - you'd probably fail more than a few of those tests I mentioned earlier. Just like Billy would have.

Uncalled for.

That isn't entirely true either.

How can people who are on a forum, spread across the US and beyond, understand that a long-held set of postings and set of attitudes by someone (which is their only contact with him) is lying and only trying to stir the pot. Should, therefore, we assume that the opposite is true about everything Billy posted? I'm assuming if someone had asked him on the forum "are you actually a Democrat" he would have answered something along the lines of fucknofuckthatshit. I don't know, because everything he posted indicated the opposite. So, if I can't trust his postings, can I trust yours? How about Kallend -- maybe he's actually a Whig, and we all know Billvon campaigned for a Libertarian once. Maybe everyone is more complex than they seem on the outside -- even people you don't know. Wendy P.

Surely a person that would pass stringent mental health tests such as you, will manage to keep a cool head in a forum right? Your word is all we've got, and no amount of saying "I'm THIS and THAT" is going to work better than actual proof.

Be honest - the economic upheaval bit is moot - you'd have to actually care about poor people for that to be a problem. You just want your cheap gas and don't give a shit about the environment OR the poor.

Well, I've no intention of being "nice" about Billy Vance. He's a murderer. Period. And he, and others with the attitudes he had expressed who've posted in this thread, are the enablers of murderers of little children in their classrooms. I find them sickening in the way they rationalize their love of killing machines.

Well - except mass shootings did go down during the assault weapon ban. Even that poorly written piece of legislature had an effect. And in countries that have better laws (Australia, the UK) mass shootings virtually stopped. So they do work. People just don't want them.

Jerry, The Ulvade massacre has me very disturbed and disoriented, much like a hit to the head. All of these shootings have left me somewhat unhorsed but this one, where the cops were standing by armed to the teeth and yet paralyzed by fear when parents were fighting them to get into the school to save their kids is simply too much. I read that one dad was put to the ground and cuffed to keep him away. A mother was cuffed after pleading for the cops to act, then released, and then scaled a fence to get in to save her kids. How can anyone in authority believe this is how we should live?

Sometimes doing the wrong thing, or the imperfect thing, gives a point of view that makes the right thing easier to find. Kind of like going up to high ground when you've lost your way, so you can see a new way out. Wendy P.

Hi DF, Re: The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to protect ourselves from our government. You cannot legally or illegally obtain enough weaponry to successfully take on a SWAT vehicle & it's occupants. We live in a different world than 1776. IMO you have to be fantasizing if you truly think you can out-gun the gov't. Jerry Baumchen

Yep, that is very true. It is worthwhile, IMO, to change our culture so we do not have the highest number of school shootings in the world. Y'know, I hear this over and over. There was an armed guard patrolling this school. He didn't stop the shooter. Two armed police officers didn't stop the shooter. In fact they regrouped or retreated or planned or something for 40 minutes before taking action, and another poster here explained why that was a good decision on their part. Adding a bunch of less trained armed people to that mix would not have made things better. And if you add more trained people, and their good decisions mean they don't engage the shooter, that means that doesn't work either. The "just add more guns" doesn't work. We keep adding more guns and the death toll keeps going up. At some point you have to admit that it's not working.

That might be an unwarranted assumption. I think some politicians operate like Trump did - they have sort of a basic instinct of what "their people" want to hear, and that's what comes out of their mouths without much additional processing. So that comment on a single door is probably something that checked all the boxes for his instinct - it's a fast answer, it sounds smart if you don't think about it, it diverts the discussion away from guns, and his supporters can focus on that instead of the issue of gun violence. Look for a walkback in a few days, along the lines of "I didn't mean that .. . ." and "look, guns don't kill people . . ." and "it's all that CRT that they are teaching that makes kids want to kill."

I rest my case

There is a quote function that’s very handy when you’re quoting someone, or responding to a specific point. As far as statistics go, any individual gun is not that likely to be stolen, or used for evil. But the more guns there are, and the more people, the larger the number of targets of opportunity. I’ve lived overseas (Brazil), traveled overseas alone, and worked in less desirable parts of town. I’ve never needed a gun for self defense. Maybe not having a gun made me be more careful, but being a woman, it’s always my fault if I’m attacked in the first place, so it’s better to avoid it. Wendy P.

Why are the police armed???

So who should be armed then?? And I agree with you it is irresponsible to leave your firearms unattended in your vehicle

Lots of countries were at gas prices that you are just now getting to.

I agree with all of that. I didn't mean to imply that they could just pull a rating for no good reason, I was just saying that they don't need the FAA's permission. But again, I agree with what you're saying here. Although it seems that... might be exactly what they're doing. I'd like to know why, and it bothers me too.