3 New BMI's in the flock

[mnskydiver688 0]

You open and one of your arm zippers jam. How is your reaction going to be different between all the suits you mention? Now make the decision while dealing with line twists down to your neck on your first WS jump.

As far as donning the suit there are major differences between TS suits and PF suits. A TS suit does not require stepping into the legs of the suit before the arms and rig can be placed on the shoulders. Also, when routine is so important I see two very different ways jumpers get ready. The guys flying PF sit down to get their leg straps on and their legs threaded through the suit. Guys flying TS place the suit and rig on their shoulders and then while standing thread their legs through their straps.

I may just be an idiot but I know I was thrown off a bit when gearing up in a TS suit for the first time.

Not trying to be a pest I am just trying to look at all the angles.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[mccordia 74]

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You open and one of your arm zippers jam. How is your reaction going to be different between all the suits you mention?

In most...pull the cutaway handle and deal with it...in others...pray you're not sweating or wearing the wrong woolen sweater underneath so you can reach your risers...
But more serious, everything you mention is covered by the person doing any form of coaching or instruction KNOWING the gear he is teaching people to fly on, as well as advising that person to seek a knowledgeable jumper who can assist him/her, should there ever be a change in suits.

Just looking at one manufacturer can in some cases already give you 5 different rigging methods and emergency procedures related to the suits put out over the years.
Its just a shame that in one case the actual manufacturer himself didn't follow the steps a real instructional/coaching course related to wingsuit flying would have taught him on instruction and pinchecks. As personally I believe that's where the real danger lies. One fatal accident is enough...
Not following procedures. Not being consistent in training and advice.
Putting people in huge wingsuit for their first few jumps. Talk to Bram (from skydive ratings) at Zhills on his experience in one of the biggest wingsuits available, on his 2nd jump. Also hear his account on how he saved his life with an emergency deployment he wasn't trained on by aforementioned 'instructor'

Trained professionals know the gear the teach on, and also know what suit they hand a student, and know what to teach at what level of experience.
Using common sense on top of training should be a given. I hope lessons learned in the past will help people see that...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 5]

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You open and one of your arm zippers jam. How is your reaction going to be different between all the suits you mention? Now make the decision while dealing with line twists down to your neck on your first WS jump.

As far as donning the suit there are major differences between TS suits and PF suits. A TS suit does not require stepping into the legs of the suit before the arms and rig can be placed on the shoulders. Also, when routine is so important I see two very different ways jumpers get ready. The guys flying PF sit down to get their leg straps on and their legs threaded through the suit. Guys flying TS place the suit and rig on their shoulders and then while standing thread their legs through their straps.

I may just be an idiot but I know I was thrown off a bit when gearing up in a TS suit for the first time.

Not trying to be a pest I am just trying to look at all the angles.

-I don't sit down to get my PF legs in and legstraps on (although I encourage my students do so) it's not required, in other words.

-Handles are in the same place on ALL systems (providing your Jii doesn't suck em' in).

-True, PF suits all have cutaways and Tony doesn't. I don't think this qualifies as a "significant difference" as relates to FFC. People are trained to not pull their cutaway handles in flight during their instability recovery training.

-Different TS are out there. Last years? Two years ago? four years ago? They're quite different. 3-4 years ago, TS were essentially the same entry as PF and BM. There are still a lot of those suits being used for training.

Last week, I had 6 FFCs training at once. Each guy got the same training, even though I had people in 3 brands of suits. Each guy got a 1-1 on his particular suit. Some have grippers, some don't, some have cutaways, others don't, my Phantom 1 has an LQRS system too, so the student gets briefed on that handle too.

In short, it's not much about the suit, it's all about the coach. Hopefully coaches have seen a variety of suits and experienced at least a couple suits by the time they hit the required 100 jumps. A smart coach looks at all the angles and understands them, and trains accordingly.

A suit malfunction has never killed anyone and likely won't. Bad instruction has and will.
Ask Dan Kulpa.

[mnskydiver688 0]

When I was referring to the arm cutaway handles I was thinking about uses after the canopy is opening. I too do not view the arm cutaway as a tool to be used in freefall. But in the case of a zipper jam actions will be different depending on the suit.

Again I am just tossing this stuff out there for the sake of discussion.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[DSE 5]

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the arm cutaway as a tool to be used in freefall. But in the case of a zipper jam actions will be different depending on the suit.

How so?

Tony has a sleeve which works "OK" assuming the wearer isn't sweaty. I've seen one suit where the guy essentially tore the zipper out to get his arm free.
PF or BM, just pull the cutaway cable.

In the event of an FFC (which is what we're talking about here, right?) it's gonna be an Intro with the unclipped wing, so reach for the risers prayer, and if it's a Prodigy, pull the snaps, and if it's an Acro or P2, pull the cables. If it's an Intro with the shackles attached, pull the shackle releases (generally shackles shouldn't be connected on a first jump, but people have been known to be in Xbirds on first wingsuit jumps, too).

All different, but don't blow the differences into big proportions.

[fasted3 0]

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Guys flying TS place the suit and rig on their shoulders and then while standing thread their legs through their straps.

Not me. I've never put on my rig without starting with the leg straps, and that's with 3 different models of Tony suits.
Also, I think the slippery sleeves are great. I haven't had any trouble with them despite sweaty arms or clothing.
I have no dog in the brand wars fight. I like wingsuits, no matter who makes them.

But what do I know?

[mccordia 74]

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I have no dog in the brand wars fight.

Safety is not brandwar.
Tony promised a girl at the world basrace to mod her suit with a cutaway.
I dont think he'd be making such promises if it was working well. And I know some people left the sponsored TS crew due to nobody listening to their complaints. See that many people complain (sometimes in carefull words if the are into the brand promotional thing) about the not fully functional system. It works nice for some, but definately not al all for some others as well. And 2 or 3 highlights of situations where it works dont dismiss safety issues for everyone.
NOT mentioning a system not working as advertised...thats brandwars. Promoting a product for sale, over safety.
I think its a shame comments about safety of a product, are waivered and people are sent up with a false sense of security by saying 'its okay..you can reach your risers'.

Label me an asshole...but I prefer a focus on safety over marketing...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mnskydiver688 0]

I don't believe I am blowing them into big proportions. I am just identifying the existence of different ways to handle the same issue.

Now that I have helped take the thread in a completely different direction my work is done here.

Back to enjoying unseasonably warm Minnesota weather in Oct.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[mccordia 74]

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Now that I have helped take the thread in a completely different direction my work is done here.

Did that ever take active work on anyones behalf?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?