Connecting toggles

[pilotdave 0]

I just got my new (used) Sabre2 135 yesterday. It came with no toggles, so I took the ones off my old canopy and connected them. PD seems to have temporarily taken their canopy manual offline, (and their website seems to be down at the moment). I got instructions over the phone from a friend, but I think I better have a rigger redo them before I jump it. Here's what I did:

First I put the two brakelines side by side, and lined up the cats eyes so they'd theoretically be the same length in the end. Then I folded the end over so a couple inches overlapped, and tied a knot (just a regular one, nothing fancy) so the overlapped part became a loop. My old canopy definitely has something fancier going on. I assume the only difference is that the old one had the excess line fingertrapped into the brakeline, but I don't really know how to do that.

I got the lenths of the brakelines to be within about a centimeter of each other. Is that close enough? And how do I know if they are the proper length? There was a knot in each one about half way between the cats eye and the end of the brakeline. Is that a likely indicator of where they're supposed to be tied, or are those more likely there as a quick length adjustment by the previous owner?

I'm just going to have a rigger redo them this weekend anyway, so I'm just curious how I did.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I'm just going to have a rigger redo them this weekend anyway, so I'm just curious how I did.

Not bad. The canopy may have a small built in turn if the toggles are not set far enough down the steering lines caused by the slight difference in length and pulling down the tail slightly unevenly. I prefer to either finger trap a loop and sew it, or use the ‘no-sew’ finger trap method for attaching toggles. I don’t like having knots which can hang up on the guide ring, or the excess line flapping about.

Canopies come with links up, not including PC and D-0bag. Containers come with rises, toggles, D-bag and PC.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

I learned an important lesson last night. I never wanna be a rigger! The lines were SO tangled when I got it. They had slinks on, but at least one of the slinks came open and a couple lines came loose. In the end, I spent around 5 or 6 hours getting everything untangled and hooked up. I ended up having to take all the slinks off (one at a time), getting all the twists out of each group of lines, and reattaching them. Once I finally got it all done and connected the risers to the container, I realized I somehow got my risers switched and the riser with the RSL hookup was on the wrong side. Got that fixed quickly, reattached the risers correctly, and started to pack. I tried once to get it in the bag and gave up and went to bed. That'll be my project for tonight.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

LOL, yep. It would be a good idea to double, then triple check that it is hooked up correctly.

Derek

[rigging65 0]

If you don't have finger-trapped loops on your breaklines (which you really shouldn't finish your breaklines with until you've personally stall checked your canopy in flight), the best knot to use is a bowline.

It's easy to remove, and is strong as hell. If you're worried about the excess hanging out, just finger trap it up into the break line temporarily. The more "High Performance" the canopy, the more critical matching the line lengths to each other becomes. Of course, they should always be the same, but you're certainly going to notice the difference on a Xaos loaded at 2.2 more than on a Spectre loaded at 1.0. It's easy enough to make them perfect, so why settle for anything else, right?

It's important to test the break lengths before you finish the lines...and the factory settings are usually close, but not perfect (people have different length arms, risers, etc.). The method we use is called the "4-second-stall". Basically, you completely flare the canopy (up high) and start counting. One-one thousand, two-one thousand....

You'd like the canopy to go into a full stall right after four-one thousand. This gives you 2 seconds of full flare to stop the canopy with, one more second to touch down, and one second of buffer (just in case).

With your breaks tied off at factory settings, you might not be able to get the canopy to stall. So, take a two finger wrap on each breakline and try it again. If it's still not enough, take a full hand wrap and try again. Once you get the length sorted out KEEP THE WRAPS IN HAND and land the canopy. DON'T LET GO YET! If you throw a felt pen in your pocket before the jump, you can simply mark where the line comes out of your hand, and that gives you the finish point for your finger-trapped loop. Have your rigger finish your lines into a loop and away you go with your properly tuned breaks (testing it one more time after the lines have been finished is always a good idea as well )! This technique seems to work really well for most canopies, and is the same way I've tuned all my Stilettos, Crossfire and Xaos canopies.

Some other things to watch for: Make sure you're flaring fully, all the way to arm extension. It's bad juju to intentionally tie your break lines off so they stall short of full extension, because if you (or someone borrowing your canopy) freaks out and stabs the breaks, they can stall out the canopy far too quickly. Also, your break lines shouldn't be set so short as to cause the tail of the canopy to be deflected....if your settings result in tail deflection during full flight, you've got a problem and should consult your rigger about it.

Setting breaks to the proper length is one of the best things you can do to get max performance out of your wing, so take the time to do it right!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[base283 0]

Bowline is not a good choice unless one has an extra safety hitch on top of it. A Bowline knot stays tied because of the tension OF THE LEAD LINE itself on the knot. NOT the compression in the knot itself. Which means that when the brake is stowed there will be no tension on the knot making it loose and susceptible to coming untied or slipping. The is very important on the HMA and Spectra type of low elongation lines which don´t compress very well. I could explain a test to show ya if need be. anyway, been there, and done that.
take care,
space

[Chrisky 2]

When you do that stuff for the first time, have a rigger to help you, saves a _lot_ of time and you learn a lot, too! Was soo happy when i did it, cause i had to unlink the lines, too, and a rigger really has a trick or two up his sleeve to make that super easy while staying on the safe side.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[rigging65 0]

Been there, done that as well... We've been tying bowlines into Dacron and Spectra for many, many years and have never seen it slip. In fact, we use it because it has a history of not slipping. A locking knot is always a good idea, but the point of a bowline is that you can easily untie it, but it stays tight until you release it.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[base283 0]

Quote

but the point of a bowline is that you can easily untie it, but it stays tight until you release it.

I just tried it.
The Bowline knot is not a good choice for tying the toggles to the brake lines. It is very easy to untie, way too easy in fact IMHO. Try this;
a. Tie a Bowline in the end of the line,
b. hook your index finger into it, pull 15 to 20kg,
c. now push the lead of the line into the knot and the knot opens with very little force.
A Bowline is not a good knot for a line that will be loaded in a cyclic nature (as in load off, load on, load off etc. as brake lines are.
take care,
space


Here are some links to higlight this concern

· http://www.hightrek.co.uk/climbing/how2/bowline.htm
· http://members.aol.com/idfrank/bowline.html

The Bowline (called by many the King of Knots) has fallen into disfavor with the introduction of synthetic ropes and lines. Tied in natural fibers, it is a useful, although not particularly strong (60%) knot. In synthetics, which tend to be stiff and slippery, the simple Bowline should be avoided.
It can work or slip loose
. Better knots are needed. For example, the…..

· http://www.timeoutdoors.com/climb/trad/4CLMLYP01090206E.htm

Pros...................................... Cons
Quick to tie……………Can work loose during the course of a long day.
Low bulk………………Must have a stopper next to it.

· http://www.geocities.com/kinta_ke_19/skill/knot.htm

Tip. For added security, finish the knot with a stop knot such as a Figure of Eight knot to remove any possibility of the Bowline slipping. Tip. If you use this knot in a man carrying situation - perhaps a rescue where a harness is unavailable - then you MUST use a stop knot as mentioned above.

· http://www.losalamos.org/climb/knots.pdf

The bowline is easy to adjust and untie. Beware, though, that if
tied incorrectly in can be unsafe. You should really tie a stopper
knot in the loop with the loose end to prevent it from pulling
through.

· http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/2001_bc1.htm

Bowline. The most important adjustment is the size of the bowline loop that connects the retrieval line to the Lifesling. The loop needs to reach above the deck of your boat so that when the victim is alongside someone can easily reach the loop to connect the lifting hoist without leaning over the side. This usually means adjusting the size of the bowline in the Lifesling to match your boat’s freeboard at the point where the victim will be hoisted aboard. The new bowline must be taped, seized or sewed so that it does not open inadvertently.

[rigging65 0]

That is most interesting. I can't say I've ever seen information stating that the knot has the potential to slip. We've been using this knot in this loft for about 12 years and have not once had a problem with one coming loose, let alone untied. I wonder if it's because of the long tail left outside the knot? Perhaps it's because of the diameter of the cord? Maybe a larger diameter cord has more potential to untie? Ideas?

I know there are several other lofts in the area that use the bowline commonly and they've not had any problems either (we're in contact all the time). It would be interesting to find out why there isn't a history of that knot failing in skydiving...it just doesn't seem to happen...but, based off the information you've presented, it would seem that the bowline ought to fail easily.

Thanks for enlightening my day! Anyone else have experience with this...positive or negative?

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[base283 0]

Yo, sorry, I was hard on ya, Old school was that one must have 12 times the circumference hangin loose. I boated for a decade.
take care
space