base283 0 #1 November 12, 2003 To Riggers; What if one could control (within 1-2%) the force applied with a leverage device so one could be certain not to exceed the forces stated? Would you buy it? It seems that it would make things a lot easier and exact for closing reserves. thanks, take care, space note: crossposthttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=751543;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #2 November 12, 2003 This is no specification or limit on the amount of force used or needed to close a reserve, i.e. apply to a leverage device. The only specification is on the pull force to extract the ripcord. The force needed to close the reserve/emergency rigs I service varies from 2 pounds (third pin on a strong chair) to more than I can apply with a kneeling plate and a handle. I see no added value to knowing or controlling how much force I'm using to pull the loop. The leverage device I use already uses an axel and socket wrench, so if I want to know the force all I have to do is get out my torque wrench and do a little math. No thanks.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #3 November 12, 2003 I'm with Terry. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 November 12, 2003 Me too...and usually you can do it by feel anyway. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #5 November 12, 2003 Just asking, I have a chance to realize this due to my work if it was perceived needed, and I am a rigger on the side. thanks, keep up the good work. take care space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #6 November 12, 2003 QuoteMe too...and usually you can do it by feel anyway. Yep, "Usually" is cool especially when your feel is within 20-30%.....I mean after all, it´s ok.... take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 November 12, 2003 QuoteYep, "Usually" is cool especially when your feel is within 20-30%.....I mean after all, it´s ok.... The amount of force to close the container isn't an issue, the amount of force required to pull the pin from the loop is. This can be tested after closing the container. There are several methods of doing this test. 20-30% is plenty to determine if a pull test is necessary. If it feels anywhere near the 22 lbs. do the test. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #8 November 12, 2003 I'm with Terry, besides. too much force, and BANG! you risk a bloody nose. You learn what feels right and what feels wrong.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #9 November 13, 2003 QuoteYep, "Usually" is cool especially when your feel is within 20-30%.....I mean after all, it´s ok.... Actually, pretty much all the professional riggers I know can "feel" within a pound or two of what the scale reads on a pull test...so, yes, it is "ok"... If you do enough of anything, you develop a feel for it...we pack plenty of reserves to stay consistent. Of course, it's always good to double check yourself, which we do quite often...just to keep that edge. That's what it means to be a Professional... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #10 November 13, 2003 Too much force and you may damage the container too. I have seen several Javelins with the anchoring disc for the closing loop tented up. One was bad enough that it had to be replaced to the tune of 100.00 to pull the backpad off and do it right. This is why I will not use a positive leverage tool on a Javelin or any rig that seems to have a damageable anchoring plate for the closing loop. Hixxxdeath,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 November 13, 2003 "Positive leverage devices" were banned in Canada long before I began rigging (1984), so I have hardly any experience with them. For the last decade/2,500 pack jobs I have been using a packing hook (a combination of B-12 snap and molar strap). With the packing hook I have a good feel for when the pack is "solid." Just this past weekend, my apprentice - using my hook - told me that a loop was too short. I stepped in to confirmed her call. It is all about "feel." Yes a numerical definition of "feel" would be nice, but there are too many other variables including housing configuration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #12 November 13, 2003 Each PIA symposium Sunpath tells the attendees at their packing demo that they highly recommend a "crank tool" (positive leverage device). I agree you can damage a lot of rigs (all?) by using too much force. The device I use can tear a rig apart if used improperly. But on a Javelin using a leverage device allows you to set the PC below the sides of the container. Using a ParaGear type kneeling plate bridges across the PC to the sides and doesn't allow you to get the PC low enough. Other kneeling plates, toes, etc can allow you to do it without a crank tool. But that's what the manufacturer recommends.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #13 November 13, 2003 I don't have any trouble setting a Javelin pc down in the rig nicely with just a packing paddle and what I think is a fairly standard knee plate. However, I take the time to make a good valley beforehand getting as much bulk out to the sides and maintaining it as I close the side flaps. Then the knee plate comes into play for the pop top and bottom and top flaps. As for damageable rigs, I pack a lot of Wings and there is a virtually damage proof plate in it. I would estimate its thickness at about 1/8" vs 1/16 in the Javelin. I snapped several closing loops with a postive leverage tool in my own rig when I first got my rating, before the gods of better technique smiled upon me. It is nice to have the security of stronger materials with those rigs, but ultimately I have found there is no replacement for distributing bulk and getting the closing loop length right. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 November 15, 2003 QuoteEach PIA symposium Sunpath tells the attendees at their packing demo that they highly recommend a "crank tool" (positive leverage device). I agree you can damage a lot of rigs (all?) by using too much force. The device I use can tear a rig apart if used improperly. But on a Javelin using a leverage device allows you to set the PC below the sides of the container. Using a ParaGear type kneeling plate bridges across the PC to the sides and doesn't allow you to get the PC low enough. Other kneeling plates, toes, etc can allow you to do it without a crank tool. But that's what the manufacturer recommends. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another trick for "deep seating" the pilotchute on a Javelin is to place a small sand bag between the backpad and the floor during the later stages of closing. This allows the sides of the reserve container to "sag" away from the pilotchute. Then when you finish, the sides curve up beside the pilotchute, sometimes even above the rim of the pilotchute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
