airman210 0 #1 October 28, 2003 I know everybody has an opinion on rsl use. Just some fuel for the fire. 9/30/2001 Opelika, AL DMAL 48 >3000 YES/YES Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details. Lessons: RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #2 October 28, 2003 I'm willing to bet there was something else involved with the mal. If you've ever swung a weight around your head on the end of a string and let go of it, you know it doesn't keep spinning, it straightens out and goes away from you in a line...just like you do when you cutaway from a spinning mal. Perhaps this person was caught up in their lines before cutting away, or had his hands/arms out flailing (instead of arching like a good little skydiver) and caught the p/c with his arm... There are several reasons why what happened may have happened. Of course, it's also possible that the RSL did have something to do with it. BUT...if you look at the statistics, there are still many more people each year that die from low cutaways or cutaway-no pull incidents than can ever be associated with being injured or killed from using an RSL. Get all the facts about ANY piece of gear you're considering, weigh all the options, then make your decision. And remember, you don't have to like the facts or even choose the systems deemed most safe because of those facts...but if you're not going to use all the available safety gear, at least have the stones to stand up and say "Yes, I'm not going to make my equipment as safe as it could be, and this is the reason why..." "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #3 October 28, 2003 Quote A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details. What makes you doubt the report of "someone involved with the investigation" Would you rather listen to the speculation of someone with no first hand knowledge of the facts?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airman210 0 #4 October 30, 2003 The "sport'" has inherant risks, no doubt. I just don't see myself cutting away and forgeting the reserve. I know there is an arguement for low cuts. My opinion has waivered many times about rsl's but I think the Vector "skyhook" is great idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #5 October 30, 2003 Quote The "sport'" has inherant risks, no doubt. I just don't see myself cutting away and forgeting the reserve. Do you think any of the people who have gone in over the past many years as a result of cutaway/no-pull or cutaway/low-pull thought they would ever have a problem forgetting to put their reserve out? The RSL is a back up plan, that's it. If things don't go the way you "thought" they'd go, it's there to help you out. No one is perfect 100% of the time...and wouldn't it be a bitch to get caught during one of those times you're not perfect??? Regardless, just be informed when you make your decision. And yes, I do think the Skyhook is very promising! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #6 October 30, 2003 Quote Do you think any of the people who have gone in over the past many years as a result of cutaway/no-pull or cutaway/low-pull thought they would ever have a problem forgetting to put their reserve out? The RSL is a back up plan, that's it. If things don't go the way you "thought" they'd go, it's there to help you out. EXACTLY!!!! Hey Ryan, How much would it cost to put an RSL onto a Mirage that doesn't have one right now? I'm trying to encourage the GF to get one.....she was told to NOT get one when she bought her first rig. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #7 October 30, 2003 I watched a video last week at my DZ. When the guy pulled and his main was out he reached up to grab the toggles and SNAP the RSL side of the risers disconnected, leaving his main attached on one side. He was a camera man so he disconnected his RSL. If he had it attached he would of shot his reserve into his main and would probably be dead. I myself don't want an RSL... P.S how does a skyhook work? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #8 October 30, 2003 Sounds like your friend needs to maintain his gear better....or check his risers more often...there are benefits and negatives to everything. RSL's are one thing that has both a huge benefit and some small risk. I will not jump with out one, unless I have a camera on my head or I am jumping my freefly tube...but to each his own. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #9 October 30, 2003 It was not his gear The one big thing I don't understand about RSL's is this, what if you cut away and your main isn't completely gone, your RSL pulls and your reserve is now a part of your main. I would think that not having one would be a bigger benefit for that reason. I am very new in the sport so I am just spouting what I have noticed, not trying to tell anyone anything. P.S What do you think are huge benefits to an RSL? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #10 October 30, 2003 It was not his gear??? huh?? then how did it just come undone? sounds to me like it eather broke...or he didn't hook the 3rings up properly...or some other part of the riser/release system was not working. risers just dont "pop" off for the heck of it. benefits? well it will help get the reserve out faster should I be low, it will get the reserve out if I am unable to get to the handle..ie.harness turned all sorts of ways, dislocation of an arm, folded under handle,etc., helps me when I might not be 100% when I get that cutaway(even the best have a bad day...I dont plan on it..but like back up...too many people have not beat the ground with there reserve pull) there's more I am at a brain block right now. like I said before...it is important to maintain your riser system if you have an RSL to prevent one HUGE problem with an RSL system. it is a risk...but I think I am more afraid of a low cutaway than I am of my riser's failing..as I replace them when they should be. I also do not use my RSL all the time...I disconnect it when needed as I stated before. like I said before they have drawbacks...and benefits. for me I like em...for you well that's for you to decide. just dont believe all the doomsayers when it comes to RSL's. they aren't really as bad as they will have you to believe. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #11 October 30, 2003 http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/05326.pdf Try thisillegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #12 October 30, 2003 Huh? ...Aren't you the same guy who was saying before HERE that (and I quote): Quote I tend to disconnect my RSL after every canopy deployment. So tell us then, are you that same guy, or have you perhaps Marcus maybe learned something different since then? If RSL's are such a (again I quote): "HUGE BENEFIT", especially in the case if you may need to cut-away LOW, why is it that you also advocate instead (or practice yourself) DISCONNECTING them precisely when otherwise you also state it may be most needed? I don't see as you can have this BOTH ways. RSL's will not work, or do ANYTHING for you if they've been disconnected! Please help clarify this seemingly self-contradictory position for me you seem to hold if you would please. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #13 October 30, 2003 Quote I watched a video last week at my DZ. When the guy pulled and his main was out he reached up to grab the toggles and SNAP the RSL side of the risers disconnected, leaving his main attached on one side. He was a camera man so he disconnected his RSL. If he had it attached he would of shot his reserve into his main and would probably be dead. I myself don't want an RSL... P.S how does a skyhook work? My bet is he had Type 17 risers. If he had Type 8 there probably would not have been a problem.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #14 October 31, 2003 Quote what if you cut away and your main isn't completely gone, your RSL pulls and your reserve is now a part of your main. We were discussing this in another thread, but if your RSL is set up correctly this shouldn't happen. You basically need to shorten your cutaway cable on the non-RSL side by about an inch (relative to the RSL side cable). By doing this, you ensure that the non-rsl side leaves first. Then the worst case is that the RSL side stays intact and you have a streamer, but then, at least, you have the option to try and screw with the remaining riser or put out your reserve. Quote P.S What do you think are huge benefits to an RSL? What are the huge benefits of a seat belt in a car? You very rarely need them, right? So why wear one...? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #15 October 31, 2003 I just finshed reading a TON on RSL's here. I am going to do a lot of thinking before I make my final decision... UGH... My brain hurts, I need to stop reading all this... Sure RSL, nah no RSL, well maybe RSL, nah... AAD? WTF??? They just had to throw that in there to mix it up huh... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #16 October 31, 2003 Must......stop.....reading.......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #17 October 31, 2003 Another question, can a rig that didn't come with an RSL be fitted for one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #18 October 31, 2003 I am entitled to my opinions on the RSL as are you. I stated that I "tend" to disconnect my RSL. that does not mean all the time and does not mean never. I am not a moron and understand that when I disconnect my RSL it will no longer serve a purpose. how I am contradicting my self I do not understand. yes it will help you if you have a low cutaway...no it wont help me when I disconnect my RSL...DUH!!!!! I was giving benefits of an RSL system....one of them is it helps for a low cutaway. is this why I have it??? did I say that??? Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #19 October 31, 2003 Quote Another question, can a rig that didn't come with an RSL be fitted for one? Yes it can...depending on the manufacturer, the cost is over 50 and under 100 bucks...plus risers. unless they can mod your risers you have. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #20 October 31, 2003 Quote I am entitled to my opinions on the RSL as are you. Absolutely, and you seem to be dispensing some "advice" around here about it based upon yours. I would just like to better understand then (have you clarify I guess) more precisely what that is. Is that too much to ask? Quote I stated that I "tend" to disconnect my RSL. Actually, what you said was (AGAIN): Quote I tend to disconnect my RSL after "every" canopy deployment. I cut-n-pasted that from YOUR very own post. I did not paraphrase. If you are such an advocate of the RSL (as you apparently are), I am just trying to understand here why it is that you state you actually then DISCONNECT it, or excuse me.... "tend to" disconnect it after every canopy deployment? I'm just wondering if there is something operative further here that we all should perhaps be considering more in depth here then? Seriously. What is it that is making you "tend to" disconnect it after every canopy deployment??coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #21 October 31, 2003 Quote ...plus risers. unless they can mod your risers you have. There's a quick and simple FAA approved riser addition that lets you use your own risers with a retrofit RSL (assuming the retrofit paperwork you have includes it, of course). It's actually also designed to help in the very unlikely event that you have a riser break as well... And it can be changed from one set of risers to another! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #22 November 2, 2003 Quote Another question, can a rig that didn't come with an RSL be fitted for one? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, if it was recent production, just mail it back to the factory for an RSL retrofit. For older rigs (i.e. my 1985 Mirage), send it to Action Air in Davis, California as they have FAA approval to retrofit RSLs to almost any rig. Otherwise, you have to find an FAA Master Rigger who has field approval for RSL retrofits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #23 November 2, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tend to disconnect my RSL after "every" canopy deployment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I cut-n-pasted that from YOUR very own post. I did not paraphrase. If you are such an advocate of the RSL (as you apparently are), I am just trying to understand here why it is that you state you actually then DISCONNECT it, or excuse me.... "tend to" disconnect it after every canopy deployment? My apolgies to Skymedic for butting in here to speak for him and double that if I am wrong. I do not see anything inconsistent in his statements. After a canopy is open and presumeably flying well, there is no longer much need for the RSL to be connected at that point since it is highly unlikely that a malfunction would occur, unless induced by being overzealous with toggle inputs. Some people in some areas of the country choose to disconnect the RSL after the canopy is open and functioning because high winds/turbulence on the ground after landing may cause them to want to cutaway the main and they may not want the RSL to pull the reserve pin. I hope this clears up the disconnection of the RSL after every canopy deployment statement. To me, it does not seem to be inconsistent with advocating its' use on jumps that do not involve video, skyboards, or CRW. If I am wrong, please accept my apologies and ignore me.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #24 November 3, 2003 Quote After a canopy is open and presumeably flying well, there is no longer much need for the RSL to be connected at that point since it is highly unlikely that a malfunction would occur, unless induced by being overzealous with toggle inputs. How about a low collision, with anouter jumper inder and open parachute, that requires a low cutaway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #25 November 3, 2003 [QUOTE]How about a low collision, with anouter jumper inder and open parachute, that requires a low cutaway? [/QUOTE] I agree skydiverek. imo low cutaways are the REASON you would use a RSL. If you're high enough to delay a sec then the RSL is redundant. The microsecond the RSL could give you from a cutaway at 700 feet is the main reasons I consider using one. Just my opinion though. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
