The direction of wingsuiting

[PhreeZone 20]

>I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like you're working awfully hard at disagreeing.

No shit. Its a whole lot easier to go with the flow then against it. I HATED the whole BMI thing. I was a rebel and would teach anyone as soon as I got my first suit. I only had 25 BM jumps but there I was relaying exactly what I was taught.

Turns out that some of the things I was teaching and showing others were not the best things. They worked, but knowlege was out there how to do it better and I did'nt have that knowledge. I flew along on some first flights at WFFC 03. One of the most dangerous situations I've ever been in was taking someone out and having them completely ignore the flight pattern and they flew right up jump run (Birdies get out first at WFFC). 2 Buzz attempts were made to try and get their attention but they never noticed. Some of the BMI's told me better ways of dealing with the situation.

Once the real BMI classes were introduced I noticed a huge improvement in the quality of students coming out of the classes at WFFC '04. Standerds were developed and every student was taught the same exact thing from everyone. I could go up to any BM student and ask them how to best fly the pattern and everyone of them knew it. Even more impressive was that on second and third jumps some of these birds knew already how to fly relative and better break off techniques then any student in '03. This is due to the direct hands on knowledge passed on in the BMI classes. They covered way more and gave better details during the actual student breifings.

I had cash $ issues last year and I was never able to attend the BMI class. If I see the right chance to do one this year I will. Not because I have a desire to get an entire DZ of flockers... but because some of the skills and knowedge passed on in the class will be easy to pass on to already estabilished flocks and flockers and that will only take the flying to the next level.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[notsane 0]

Jason,

You may think you're a crusading rebel, but all that's coming across is that you enjoy pissing contests. A month ago, for a few seconds, I thought you'd grown up .. but I see now that I was mistaken. For everyones' sake, especially your own, grow up, get out, and get some experience with people other than yourself.

Scott

[TomAiello 26]

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...grow up...

This is a personal attack. Consider yourself warned.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Since USPA standards are being thrown out there, let me refresh everyone's memory as to the conversation we had on this quite a while ago. The current USPA standards were developed and adopted after Birdman(jari, myself and others) were contacted by USPA on as to what the standard should be for wingsuits in general. The USPA standards are almost verbatim statements from the Birdman manual written by jari and myself among others.

I think phree pretty much summed up what the desparity is between a BMI and a good intentioned wingsuit pilot teaching others.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[txjuju 0]

As the innocent bystander/thread watcher it seems that all the support is from non - BMCI/BMI and all the opposition is from the BMCI/BMI.

I see short comings in both arguments - both sides seem to have valid points but neither side can get it out there without making themselves look like an ass.

As for the USPA argument - I have to say that the USPA states and is not written in a way that it could be misinterperted. You would really have to stretch to be able to misread it. It really doesn't matter where the info came from, it is the way and where it is written

My 5 wingsuit jumps don't make me an authority and I personally wouldn't try to train anyone at my level - just stating hard facts

Brian

[Tonto 1]

No such thing as an innocent bystander...

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My 5 wingsuit jumps don't make me an authority and I personally wouldn't try to train anyone at my level - just stating hard facts

So when ARE you experienced? 6, 10, 50, 500 wingsuit dives?

What would make this easier to resolve, is if the USPA (and in my case, PASA) DEFINED what an experienced wingsuiter was. Is it someone who has experienced jumping a wingsuit? Someone with 10 wingsuit jumps but some instructional rating, like a coach, TI, SLI, or AFF I? Someone with 50 wingsuit jumps but no instructional ratings what so ever?

I think we all agree that there is little a BMI (I use that term specifically since I know of no other wingsuit instructional rating) can do to SAVE their student - ala AFF - if things go pear shaped out the door. This means that it's important that those skills are correctly transfered prior to exit, and that, I feel, requires a structured aproach to the instruction.

As for my status in all of this, I am a BMI. I flew from South Africa to California and paid to go on the BMI course. I have yet to charge more than my slot to give someone a FFC or to go on a coaching dive - so I think it would be hard to prove I was in this for the money.

I think many agree that flocking with friends is the way this small section of the sport will go, and there's little point in being the only bird. I've built a flock of over 20 birds at my home DZ for the purely selfish reason of having people to play with, and I'm in the process of putting together a program that will allow me to spread this aspect of human flight over other parts of the country.

Yes, I do AFF. Yes, I'm paid good money to do AFF - about $42 a jump. I still turn down LOTS of AFF to be able to jump with my new winged friends, and all the time I spend on other DZ's doing FFC's "for free" costs me the +- $400 a day I could be earning doing AFF.

As skydivers, we yearn for freedom, and unless we're from the UK, resent over control. The USPA must have great faith in the safety of wingsuit flight or else they would not allow non rated people to teach this medium.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[katiebear21 0]

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As the innocent bystander/thread watcher it seems that all the support is from non - BMCI/BMI and all the opposition is from the BMCI/BMI.

Not true, read Phree's post above. I do believe that folks either agree or disagree and that's usually personallity driven. Chuck, myself, Scott, all military folks believe in systems being put in place for safety's cause. It's in our military training and in our blood. Other folks think differently.

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both sides seem to have valid points but neither side can get it out there without making themselves look like an ass.

Again, personality differences. In person, this conversation would look much different but I'm almost positive Jason and Chuck would still disagree... Chuck's Scott/Irish - pretty damn stubborn - but, he's passionate about wingsuiting and BELIEVES in what he's saying. From one of Jason's earlier posts in this thread: "I come to these forums for entertainment-- I get entertainment from raising eyebrows and debate.(**ITS NOT REAL LIFE**) in real life things are not misconstrued as there is voice inflexion used to get your point across - typing without the human body language and tone of the voice is hard to "read" I have been known at times to be an ass (lots of times actually) but this post was not intended to be one of them."

Jason enjoys debate probably just for the sake of debating. I see him somewhat as a devil's advocate (except he's actually practicing some of the points he debates) as opposed to an ass...

I never get worked up over these posts but I saw Phree go through the same thing a few years ago. I do believe that you have to play by someone else's rules no matter who they are (manufactorer, bmi, bmci, etc.) in order to keep your dropzone safe just in case some tragedy would occur. We've been fortunate not to have many wingsuit accidents but I believe that's a direct result of the training involved with a ffc and training head's up students with fair jump numbers.

Safe (keep your your dz out of legal trouble) = Manufacturers recommendations + SIM guidance + DZO rules.

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

[voodew1 0]

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What would make this easier to resolve, is if the USPA (and in my case, PASA) DEFINED what an experienced wingsuiter was. Is it someone who has experienced jumping a wingsuit? Someone with 10 wingsuit jumps but some instructional rating, like a coach, TI, SLI, or AFF I? Someone with 50 wingsuit jumps but no instructional ratings what so ever

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Good point

As for my status in all of this, I am a BMI. I flew from South Africa to California and paid to go on the BMI course. I have yet to charge more than my slot to give someone a FFC or to go on a coaching dive - so I think it would be hard to prove I was in this for the money.

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Very nice - pass it forward!

I've built a flock of over 20 birds at my home DZ for the purely selfish reason of having people to play with,

We are all selfish that way


Thanks for your input. The "how much experience" point is very valid
Jason

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[turtlespeed 226]

Did WS jump #4 this past weekend - I think I have made great improvements. I know I still have a lot to learn - but I am at least learning - I wouldn't have made even the #1 when I did, had it not been for the efforts of Jason and Ted.

I appreciate that they spend the time and effort trying to introduce others into what they love to do. Their time - noone elses - exept for the person that is wanting to learn is involved. There is NO MONEY that excanges hands. (Or at least, not expected to exchange hands.)

Is it selfish, the want to introduce people to WS flying? Perhaps - but just as selfish that you mention to anyone that you skydive hoping for that little spark of interest that just might lead to a Tandem or AFF course.

----------------

So - I reread what I had typed to this point - as I always do when I post anywhere "Not Bonfire" and realized that the last two paragraphs pretty much contradict themselves. One articulating the selflesness and giving of time to acomplish what ever it takes to advance the discipling of WS. The second describing selfish intent as to why the former was desired.

Ironic - isn't it - that both SM1 and Voodew have the same goals in mind?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[voodew1 0]

I remember the good old days where this forum was interesting --- isn't there any new blood out there to make the forums interesting again

Maybe something new to argue about

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[yuri_base 1]

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isn't there any new blood out there to make the forums interesting again

Maybe something new to argue about

Maybe Texas gang can argue about what the shape of the L/D curve is all about?

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[VectorBoy 0]

--- isn't there any new blood out there to make the forums interesting again

[Buried 0]

you mean 'interesting' in a useful context?
prehaps we can talk about shapes what would be intersting to fly and move away from the few traditional shapes wout there.


i think i want to try and make my own suit. i'm thinking a box or maybe a 3d diamond shape would work the best. now i know nothing about air-yo-dinamicks but maybe if you point a point dewn yer culd bild up sum left and get a better D/L. the prob weth that is the pigs may cum fer yers and then ya would need to rips those fetherly flappers eff und use them as pert of the suit. now i ned some kapital so wose willin to give me sem $$ so i can try something kewl out leke thes?








... and glenn

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[Buried 0]

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isn't there any new blood out there to make the forums interesting again

Maybe something new to argue about

Maybe Texas gang can argue about what the shape of the L/D curve is all about?

yuri.. let me get this right. you asked the texas gang to think about and test L/D? that's like asking neanderthals to do astrophysics

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[voodew1 0]

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yuri.. let me get this right. you asked the texas gang to think about and test L/D? that's like asking neanderthals to do astrophysics

For your info I looked at the graph and it ...............................kind of looks like a deformed penis ----- is that a photoshopped (to make it look bigger) picture of Zachs weiner????

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[dploi 0]

I think that right now, the direction of wingsuiting is forward. And also down.

[dploi 0]

OK, but seriously. Right now, the biggest advancements I've seen are not in wingsuit technology, but in the way wingsuits are flown. The "close & long" thing on big walls is spreading. I've seen some very, very impressive videos lately that are getting passed around a bit. They aren't all ending up on the web, as you'll see them in DVDs at some point in the future.

[voodew1 0]

not amazing but kind of cool -- taken from the ground

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Costyn 1]

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not amazing but kind of cool -- taken from the ground

Cool... pretty fast puller, if he's able to toss, and take his grippers again within 2 seconds. Or does he have a biteswitch which activates a springloaded pilot chute?

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[voodew1 0]

I have learned that if I pull wicked fast I don't really lose any altitude.(which is good for those lower altitude demos)
I never really knew how true that was until watching the video shot from the ground, the smoke trail never really has a dip in it during the pull (It does make for a rather brisk opening)

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Costyn 1]

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I have learned that if I pull wicked fast I don't really lose any altitude.(which is good for those lower altitude demos)
I never really knew how true that was until watching the video shot from the ground, the smoke trail never really has a dip in it during the pull (It does make for a rather brisk opening)

Ah it's a pic of you... that's pretty cool. Yeah I don't tend to close everything down before I pitch... but I think I could do it more efficiently.

How do you manage to find your grippers so quickly again though?

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[voodew1 0]

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How do you manage to find your grippers so quickly again though?

I don't really know how to answer that --- I just reach for them and they are there --- I only drop the right hand during the pull. I am not really sure how it is with the Birdman suits but with the V1 if you spread the wings really tight the grippers just kind of end up in your hand.

I wouldn't be as effienct on the pull with my V2 as the wings don't like to deflate very fast which makes for a more calculated pull

Not meaning to turn this into a PF post but its what I fly and you asked

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mccordia 74]

I think the bigger grippers on the V1/V2 are a bit easyer to grab then the shorter S3/S6 grippers. But those are also pretty much in your hand when you are flying in a max position with your arms.

If you look at this video at 5:27 you can see me grab the grippers again after pulling (just grab them at the moment my canopy 'sits me up')

But my arm position during that jump (elbows pointing up, more falling then flying) ment I had to reach back a bit to grab them...but even then its do-able to grab them again after pulling.

Pretty useless though, concidering my whole body-postion there and the speed at which the jump was going down..holding grippers doesnt make a lot of sense (max-performance wise..but I tend to use them like flaps/breaks on an airplane-wing..)

But the direction of wingsuiting...

Seen the new Pressurized wingsuit past weekend....at the rate new suits and manifacturers are coming out it just means more and more stuff for us to bitch about in here..
Dont know if thats the future everybody means though...?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Buried 0]

nice pic jason. what size lens were the people on the ground using? and where's my bracket



Jarno -

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new Pressurized wingsuit past weekend....

have any pics or video? there was a posting a while back about it, but 1) their site hasn't been update since and 2) nothing new has been seen on the new of us on the other side of the pond

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[voodew1 0]

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nice pic jason. what size lens were the people on the ground using? and where's my bracket

not really sure what size lens but I was kind of low (1k) -- its strange how when i have a smoke can on I seem to have a hard pull which puts me low (luckily i remembered to turn off the AAD)

As for the bracket send me $125.00 and I will send you a bracket -- your choice of foot shipping included. There will be no more made when these are gone as they are to time consuming to make and not enough profit in them ---- I do believe all the molds and materials have been sold to someone else so there maybe more from someone else later

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid