The direction of wingsuiting

[voodew1 0]

Disclaimer:
This is not directed towards any one person (so don't get your panties in a wad)
These are thoughts sent to me by another to remain unnamed unless he wants to be.

I would like to know your thoughts on this:

Talk to all the old guys who have been around
for a couple decades. There's a cycle. Something new
and cool starts up. a few crazies start doing it. For
a while, it's just a fringe thing, then others start
doing it. People who are displeased with the current
'big thing' start jumping in. It gets more and more
popular, and pretty soon, it's a discipline. All the
'big thing' guys criticize it, but it grows, because
it's the way to have fun, with your friends, instead
of getting your ass chewed for 'ruining someone's
skydive'. And the new thing grows and grows, and it
becomes the popular, big thing, that everyone wants to
do. And then comes the bullshit. The world records.
The tunnel camps. The skill camps. Paid coaching.
Factory sponsorships. Money to be made. And skygods
with thousands of jumps, chewing everyone's ass for
ruining their skydive. And that's when the next new
thing starts up, and the cycle repeats. This happened
with Style and Acc to RW, RW to Freefly, and it was
going to happen with Freefly to wingsuiting.

The problem is, wingsuiting skipped a step. RW isn't
dead, and freeflying isn't overrun with cocksuckers.
People are trying to take wingsuiting straight from
the 'small group of pioneers' stage, to the world
record/skill camp/skygod/money stage right away,
without going through the building stage. They want to
pick fruit from a plant which is still sprouting.


This is not meant to offend - just to know your feelings on the matter as it made me think (not really that long though 'cause I am not capable)

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[bodypilot1 0]

Here's my .02

I have been in the sport for alittle while to seen ALOT of jumpers come and go over the years.
Some from lack of skill, therefore not being aksed on any jumps, to lack of friends, therefor the same result.

IMO, every discipline has levels of skill.

Those that focus on getting better at the skill they like are going to get better, faster, by jumping with someone that is better, someone that can help refine their body position and awareness.

If that jumper finds someone to jump with for free, like we did years ago before the paid coaching came around, then thats "AWESOME".

Wingsuit flying is IMO far from seeing any world records, unless it recognized by FAI, and some loser see's it and enters their 7 way or something as a world record just to be the first in the books.

IMO, the large skills camps should not cost anything to attend, but maybe cover the organizers slot as a group.
The whole purpose is to get a group formation together, work on flying relative to eachother in a tight formation and keep things same and fun!

If you want to refine your skills on a 1 on 1 level, thats another story, and the same goes for any discipline in the sport, not just WS flying.

The person that offers coaching for money, whether it's RW, FF or WS, usually skydives full time and any jumpers can always find that person jumping, becuase it their JOB.

IMO, the sport has changed ALOT since I have been in it, and will continue to change...

Years ago people wanted to give back to the sport and become Instructors.
Some did it for fun and had real jobs, and some "cutaway" from real jobs to get paid a meager amount for doing what they love.

Today Instructors get paid the same as they did 20yrs ago, but the real jobs pay ALOT more than they did 20yrs ago when there was only S&A, CRW and RW.

IMO, that is why the discipline have broken into the different categories, RW coaching, Tunnel coaching, FF coaching, Canopy coaching and Wingsuit coaching.

Jumpers want to learn FASTER these days, and will look for the person that can get them to where they want to be in a shorter amount of time.

The question everyone has to ask themselves, for people that have been in the sport for some time is, do you want to change with it?

But most of all you have to ask yourself,
"Am I having fun."

Because thats what it all about.

Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
The direction of wingsuiting is generally vertical,
and yet somewhat horizontal at the same time.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[voodew1 0]

Thanks for your thoughts ED

There is a big difference between Big Giant DZs such as where you are from and small town cessna/ 1 turbine DZ.

I don't see any jumpers wanting to pay for coaching jumps that they don't have to.

Down here we latch on to some wanna be wingsuit pilot and foster them into the flockers we want them to be - at most I for the first jump slot to be covered by them after that I pay my own way as they are now one of us.

There are not very many fulltime skydivers around here and none from my DZ.
The next event I will attend I will probably be getting free skydives for organizing - I will take the money saved on skydives and buy beer and pizza for the ones I organized as I jump for fun not money.

There is a difference in the way things are done from here to there.

I would like to hear more thoughts as I think the wingsuit community is small now and may not get that much bigger if the stigma about how dangerous wingsuits are doesn't change.

Lets be real they aren't hard to fly and we have not even touched on how much can be accomplished with newer suits/slower vertical and faster horizontal speeds.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[greybeard 0]

Perhaps to expound on the thread, that wingsuit flying might grow faster if the environment was 'free and easy' v/s' fee for first flight.'

I suspect that many fun jumpers will not try a first ws because of the fee, but many younger jumpers have come to expect and respect the fee as a sign of professionalism.

Two conflicting dz's out west are Perris, with many local mentors and suits loaned, and Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'.

It would be interesting to know how many ws regulars have come from each, and how many suit sales have been generated from each.

Someone ought to be able to tally ws jumps/week at these two dz.

[voodew1 0]

Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'.***

I have not heard of this "ban" - was this instilled by the BMIs pissed about the free mentoring or by the DZ.

My DZ knows nothing about wingsuiting other then what me and my wingmen have brought forth - a few weeks ago the S&TA asked about the requirements for a first timer - my rules are 200 jumps with approval of the S&TA if I do not know of the jumper.
This came into question a week ago at a different DZ when they didn't think the jumper was ready.
At this point we will go out and simulate a wingsuit dive with out the suit-the practice pull- and the tracking positon- arms never above the head- if all is ok we proceed forward with the suit. Those are my rules - according to the SIM I could have taken her up if I wanted - The tracking dive will happen in the near future.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[greybeard 0]

Not instilled by anybody pissed about anything, Just evolved from conception in the intersest of safety.

(and perhaps in the interest of $ ) Hard to say.
I am not the DZO. I am not 'staff'.

[VectorBoy 0]

and Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'.

[bodypilot1 0]

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There is a big difference between Big Giant DZs such as where you are from and small town cessna/ 1 turbine DZ.

No "giant" DZ here Bro.
We do have a turbine running most of the time, but have been know to fly the C206 when it's slow.

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I don't see any jumpers wanting to pay for coaching jumps that they don't have to.

Coaching jumps are an option program.
If you have over 500 jumps you can take the FJC, rent suit and jump by yourself.
If you have under 500 jumps, I suggest one coach jump without the wingsuit and then one wingsuit coach jump.
Most see more professionalism in someone that has a "school" set up these days and are willing to pay for it IMO.

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Down here we latch on to some wanna be wingsuit pilot and foster them into the flockers we want them to be - at most I for the first jump slot to be covered by them after that I pay my own way as they are now one of us.

Thats becuse it's not your real job.

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There are not very many fulltime skydivers around here and none from my DZ.
The next event I will attend I will probably be getting free skydives for organizing - I will take the money saved on skydives and buy beer and pizza for the ones I organized as I jump for fun not money.

I too have jumped at a small C182 DZ that was that way.

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There is a difference in the way things are done from here to there.

You have never been here so thats not a fare comment is it?

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I would like to hear more thoughts as I think the wingsuit community is small now and may not get that much bigger if the stigma about how dangerous wingsuits are doesn't change.

Lets be real they aren't hard to fly and we have not even touched on how much can be accomplished with newer suits/slower vertical and faster horizontal speeds.

True, they aren't very hard to fly, but not teaching what to do when things go wrong can be ugly.

Keepin' it safe...
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

True, they aren't very hard to fly, but not teaching what to do when things go wrong can be ugly.

Keepin' it safe...
Ed

[speedformula 0]

hmm guys, I'll be back, Im going to blockbuster to rent a flick.

tomorrow is the weekend.

sweeeettt !!!

Keeping it real 22x7

[TomAiello 26]

Do you think the two things necesarily exclude each other?

Can small DZ's go on with informal mentoring programs, while large DZ's have more formalized instruction? Why not? Would students start going out to the small DZ's to learn?

In BASE, we've relatively recently had some wacko just start offering the formal instruction for free. Is this the equivalent of free FFC's? What about free coaching?

I dunno. I obviously have a strong bias in favor of the free "pay back the sport later" type of mentoring in most things, and I believe I've put my money where my mouth is quite strongly on that issue.

But I'm wondering if the two types can't coexist?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[VectorBoy 0]

As far as the "its not your real job" arguement .

If I chose my "real job" to be telemarketing would you be forced to float me a sale?

If I chose my real job to be the guy in the mens bathroom with an array of colognes and linen towels, would you be compelled to drop a few coin in my tray because a chose to make that my "real" job?

If I need an AFF instructor or tandem master, then yes I need to pay for that rated individual's organizational fees. Few ways around that . Wingsuiting instruction isn't a job. And there is is less than a handful of individuals that are true experts at it!

When people start to realise we are all just a bunch of apprentices this forum will have a much better flow.

[bodypilot1 0]

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We need mandatory canopy survival training.

We wouldn't need it if we jumped the parachutes as we did before you were even jumping.

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Very bad statistics, many excellent coaches available to make a positive effect. Still these services are optional.

Exactly, optional.

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But we don't need mandatory wingsuit instruction.

Where did you here anyone say we did?
Though thourgh and correct instruction is a wise option

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Less than two hours in freefall with a wingsuit and now they want to be regarded as some kind of regional expert on wingsuit flight and its instruction?

And who would this be?

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What would you say to a skilled craftsman that was charging you for their services when he told you that he has been doing this for two hours? How about a lawyer with that much court time? A dentist? A doctor, a brainsurgeon? Expert my ass! I AIN'T PAYING YOU jack is what you would say.

True, but thats my option.

After learning to jumpmaster yourself just about everything else in skydiving is optional.


Keppin it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

In BASE, we've relatively recently had some wacko just start offering the formal instruction for free. Is this the equivalent of free FFC's?
But I'm wondering if the two types can't coexist?

[bodypilot1 0]

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If I chose my "real job" to be telemarketing would you be forced to float me a sale?

Nope. That would be my option to hang up.

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If I chose my real job to be the guy in the mens bathroom with an array of colognes and linen towels, would you be compelled to drop a few coin in my tray because a chose to make that my "real" job?

Now that depends on how good you shined my shoes? Then I'd probably tip you heavy for having to hang in the bathroom.

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If I need an AFF instructor or tandem master, then yes I need to pay for that rated individual's organizational fees.

But then why wouldnt you just rent a C182 and borrow a rig, remove the door and jump?
It would probably take you sometime, but you eventually get it right.

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Wingsuiting instruction isn't a job.

And you probably think being a packer isn't either ....

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And there is is less than a handful of individuals that are true experts at it!

Very true.

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When people start to realise we are all just a bunch of apprentices this forum will have a much better flow.

Who are you an apprentice to Glen?


Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

We wouldn't need it if we jumped the parachutes as we did before you were even jumping.

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I started on military rounds, static line then on to FF. Twenty years ago. I don't care what they had before I started jumping. What I had when I started wasn't Good enough then. I like what I jump now. More importantly I love the strides that the manufacturers work hard to make and wouldn't go retro for anything.... unless the aircraft is on fire. BTW I have more injuries from back then than I do now ( zero from the now era).

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Less than two hours in freefall with a wingsuit and now they want to be regarded as some kind of regional expert on wingsuit flight and its instruction?

And who would this be?

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I'll even be generous and go Five hours. The
who would be most as in most of the instructor cadre ( I know you personnaly have quite a bit more- plus, you know others that I refer to are not as fortunate as you ) Definatly not the guy that got the rating without even owning his own suit. And not anybody that only does wingsuits on rare occasion.

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[VectorBoy 0]

But then why wouldnt you just rent a C182 and borrow a rig, remove the door and jump?
It would probably take you sometime, but you eventually get it right.

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Few ways around this. None that are smart involve bypassing instruction. I've allready conceded this ED

But when it comes to wingsuit flight , there are many ways to get there. TOO many ways and you just can't seem to concede this ED.

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Wingsuiting instruction isn't a job.

And you probably think being a packer isn't either ....

Not only is it a job its one of the hardest jobs on the DZ you earn every dollar. When it comes to packing for a living some people are hacks and others masters at their crafts with incomes that reflect this.
But their services are again optional to the individual skydiver, who could....... should learn to pack their own gear.

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When people start to realise we are all just a bunch of apprentices this forum will have a much better flow.

Who are you an apprentice to Glen?

Just about everybody I fly with even if I'm teaching them something I'm usually learning something in the process...... And I never consider myself as their resident regional expert of the day.

[Kdsosso 0]

I seldom post in any forum, but feel almost compelled to post in this forum due to such utter disappointment in regard to your continued posting about "wingsuits".

Since you have asked for opinions, I will offer mine:

Although I have been in the sport for a short time and have made few wingsuit jumps (I need a suit to make more!) I find your posts in general to be more argumentative rather than insightful and thought provoking.
You stated:
----------------------------------------------------------
The problem is, wingsuiting skipped a step. RW isn't
dead, and freeflying isn't overrun with cocksuckers.
People are trying to take wingsuiting straight from
the 'small group of pioneers' stage, to the world
record/skill camp/skygod/money stage right away,
without going through the building stage. They want to
----------------------------------------------------------
HUH? I think that everyones ability is different and their are some people that have the ability to fly a suit to the record/skill camp/skygod/money stage..I have seen some of them fly and most are have sevral thousands of jumps in different disciplines and know how to fly well. So not sure where you were going with this. I really don't get it

I certainly would not have been comfortable flying a suit without being coached by a BMI and I wouldn't recommend anyone flying a suit without proper training (my opinion)and I am willing and able to pay $$ for this service. I do expect them to be BMI's and I expect them to want to be paid for this service.

My question to you is : Is anything okay? You seem very upset in you posts and almost like you are trying to stir the pot..however if you've notice the more experienced instructors show class when responding to the posts that I feel are not here to evoke change or to inspire the interchanging of ideas, but are only posted here to argue and "seem" controversial.

I challenge you to write posts that contribute to the true spirit of this forum rather than create havoc and separation between people

It's all about being safe and having fun!

If I misunderstood all your posts, then I truly apologize.

-A new wingsuit flyer

[LouDiamond 1]

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Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I have not heard of this "ban" - was this instilled by the BMIs pissed about the free mentoring or by the DZ.

This in no way has anything to do with the BMIs at Eloy or anywhere for that matter. If you want to peddle your services, sell your t-shirts, pack chutes, sell coffee, etc you need to go through the DZ. SDA and many other DZ's do not allow people to willy nilly set up shop and sell products or services without their consent. Be it the Freefly guy selling coaching or a guy selling gear out of the trunk of his car, if you do it without the DZ's approval you're probably going to be told to stop or shown the road.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[riggerrob 643]

Okay!
I'll leap into this argument!

I may not be a wingsuit instructor - heck! I only have a half-dozen wingsuit dives - but my armpits ... er .... opinions stink as much as the next guy's.

You guys missed the point about the steep learning curve during the first few wingsuit dives.
A little instruction can vastly improve that learning curve.

As to whether wingsuit instruction should be free .... I will give free wingsuit instruction as soon as someone sweeps out my loft for free, mows the grass for free, repacks reserves for free, patches my jumpsuit for free, packs my tandems for free, feeds me for free, refuels my airplane for free, etc.

[riggerrob 643]

There's a cycle. Something new
and cool starts up. a few crazies start doing it. For
a while, it's just a fringe thing, then others start
doing it. People who are displeased with the current
'big thing' start jumping in. It gets more and more
popular, and pretty soon, it's a discipline. All the
'big thing' guys criticize it, but it grows, because
it's the way to have fun, with your friends, instead
of getting your ass chewed for 'ruining someone's
skydive'. And the new thing grows and grows, and it
becomes the popular, big thing, that everyone wants to
do. And then comes the bullshit. The world records.
The tunnel camps. The skill camps. Paid coaching.
Factory sponsorships. Money to be made. And skygods
with thousands of jumps, chewing everyone's ass for
ruining their skydive. And that's when the next new
thing starts up, and the cycle repeats. This happened
with Style and Acc to RW, RW to Freefly, and it was
going to happen with Freefly to wingsuiting.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The first part is correct about cycles.

However, I am hoping that wingsuiting turns into a "new thrill" to keep skydivers interested when they reach the 3 year/300 jump burn-out phase.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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and Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'.

You sir are exhagerating. We do not have a "ban" as you call it. We do however believe in the interest of safety for all our patrons.
As such, we chose to use qualified instructors. If they do not have a BMI then a decision is based on case by case basis.
If someone has displayed poor decision making in the past (such as flying into jump run) then you are correct they won't be taking up first flights here.

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Someone ought to be able to tally ws jumps/week at these two dz

We do. We also know exactly how many flights for skills camps and boogies.

[VectorBoy 0]

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Okay!
I'll leap into this argument!

You guys missed the point about the steep learning curve during the first few wingsuit dives.
A little instruction can vastly improve that learning curve.

As to whether wingsuit instruction should be free .... I will give free wingsuit instruction as soon as someone sweeps out my loft for free, mows the grass for free, repacks reserves for free, patches my jumpsuit for free, packs my tandems for free, feeds me for free, refuels my airplane for free, etc.

I agree with getting a little instruction. Its always better not to stumble along in a vacuum. But the first jump course is simply that one jump, about a minute of flight time. This does very little for subsequent jump learning curve. meanwhile I find that the guys that are "giving back" to the sport spend the whole day and are on those subsequent jumps helping with that learning curve. Few " this is what I do for living" types could afford to spend the whole rest of the day and be there on follow up jumps for free. Because the mentors are trying to develope a safe, local flock culture, one could almost describe it as an ongoing program.

Don't get me wrong. Everybodys time is worth something. Nobody should feel they have to give it away. If there are costs in travel, equiptment, and time spent. Then it is fair to get a return. I don't expect anyone to work for free.

I see plenty of organizers in all disciplines RW,FF and CReW is a supreme example, donating time and energy. Working very hard in scheduling logistics, cordination and yes even training to some degree. Sometimes their compensation is a slot covered and sometimes its nothing more than a groovy time with a bunch of locals that they wish to be an ongoing thing.

[VectorBoy 0]

If you want to peddle your services, sell your t-shirts, pack chutes, sell coffee, etc you need to go through the DZ. SDA and many other DZ's do not allow people to willy nilly set up shop and sell products or services without their consent.