Classic I arm position advice

[rsibbald 0]

A question for any experienced wingsuit fliers out there....... Where have you found the best arm position to be for flying a Birman Classic I suit?

Everything I have read suggests that arms and hands should be level with the upper torso in flight, i.e. straight. However, I seem to be getting much slower descent rates and a better glide ratio with my upper arms in a "hug the beachball" position. Is it likely that I am not really using the suit to its full potential in this position?

My average flight in this position, with arms bent and hands well in front of my upper body, from 14,000ft to deployment at 5000ft, is 2 and a half minutes. If I straighten my arms and bring my hands level with my sides and reduce the curve across the leading edge then I rarely pass 1 and a half minutes.

Should I continue with what seems to work for me? Or should I stop learning a bad habit? Any tips on why I might not be flying as efficiently with arms straight?

Thanks for any repsonses - BTW I am self-taught from the BM manual and have no easy access to any local BMIs, hence asking the question here!

Edit to add: I'm a tall & skinny, if that affects the position anyhow?

[Tonto 1]

2.5 min for 9000ft on a Classic? Sounds like you're already acheiving the impossible!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rsibbald 0]

Last jump was 15,000 ft, deployed 4500ft, pro track maxed out and neptune read 2 min 25s........ so that was a little exaggeration.....

Basically I'm concerned that I could be floating more than flying, but don't have anyone to flock with, so I'm finding it hard to tell.

[Tonto 1]

I know how you feel. I was one of the 1st Birds on my DZ - and to this day I'm not sure if I suck or not - and if so, how badly I suck. Do you have any acces to a GPS? With that you can work out your glide angle, and that will give you a better idea.

I think you're doing very well though. I'm jumping from 11000 AGL (16000AMSL) and am getting around 90 -100 seconds to 3000ft (8000ft flight) on my S3. I'm looking forward to jumping with others who know more than me so I can learn a bit faster.
That should happen in Eloy at the holiday boogie.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rsibbald 0]

Short of trying to keep up with the aircraft and read the pilot's GPS through the window, I don't really have one available.

I find it very hard to judge visually but I would estimate that my forward speed is no more than a max track. The only reason I cover more ground is because I'm up there longer!

I tried a GTi for 4-5 jumps and found that I was getting a bit more forward speed, but my descents were back at 80-100 seconds and a lot more tiring on the arms... I guess it's even harder trying to fly in an arm-low position on something like an S3?

[Tonto 1]

I've heard a lot of "S3 kicked my ass!" comments, but I find it very comfortable to fly, which makes me think I must be doing something wrong. I just can't see how 2 to 3 min of anything static can be THAT hard, but maybe I'll have that pointed out to me by others.

The GTi is faster forward than the S3 due to it's narrower wing profile, but this forward speed should increase the lift and so put your speed into the mid 50's, from what I hear.

What kind of body type are you?

1. Tall and skinny
2. Small and light
3. Medium and medium
4. Big and Heavy,
5. Small and heavy

In my experience, those are the body types from best to worst for flying a wingsuit.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rsibbald 0]

Definitely 1. Tall & skinny
My normal fall rate in a fast RW suit is often sub-100mph! I need to strap enough lead to make an anvil to me to jump with anyone

[TALONSKY 0]

In my experience the Skyflier 3 has a much faster forward speed. Steve (Manbird) and I both started out on GTI’s and later bought S3’s. In our GTI’s, Steve could out float me but we had a very similar forward speed. I happened to get my S3 before he did and I could fly much faster forward than he could. As for the S3 being a hard workout, well when you push it, it really is a lot of pressure on the arms due to the arm wings being much bigger than the GTI. As far as natural build your right, it does give you a natural advantage or disavantage. However, compared to Steve I am taller and thinner than Steve yet he can still fall much slower than I. So, I think there is a lot to be said for the honing in your abilities.
Kirk

[Tonto 1]

I hear you on the workout relative to the other suits, but by comparison to rock climbing, a double sword form, or sparing with a 6ft staff - I wouldn't call it a workout.

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Courteney 0]

Hey Tonto,

I've actually been wanting to ask the same question for arm position in general. I see pics of guys with their arms slightly rolled forward but straight and others with there lower arms slightly bent. I fly straight out and best time thus far was 81sec for 6800' ff, averaging 53mph. I'd actually like to know from those who fly different arm positions what's their reason/theory behind it?!

Cheers,
Courteney.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[Tonto 1]

Hi Courteney,

I'm expecting someone else to chime in here - as I'm no expert. I don't even wear anything digital that gives me numbers of any kind, although many of those that I jump with do.

I do think that speeds in the low 50's are good for a GTi, but I don't have any idea what kind of glide ratio you have. I think it was Robert who said

"Gravity is our only engine, speed is our only friend."

I think many new jumpers with tools (proTrack, Neptune) are overly obsessed with freefall time, probably because it's so easy to measure. I've had top speeds on my S3 of over 140 mph vertical as we play around chasing each other. Those were incredible dives with such different perameters to the usual "see how long" or "see how far" flights.

Is the canopy pilot who stays up the longest the best? Is the one who loses most altitude on a dive the best? The longest swoop? I think we should be exploring our own limitations within every aspect of potential flight. There's so much out there to learn.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Tonto hit it on the head. While lofting along at a very quiet 38mph vertical is neat, it's tiring and a bit boring. I generally always mix my wingsuit jumps up with "Stuka Dives", taking grips, and generally screwing around. I can go three minutes, but it's much more fun to go two minutes and whoop it up.

Chuck

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Tonto hit it on the head. While lofting along at a very quiet 38mph vertical is neat, it's tiring and a bit boring. I generally always mix my wingsuit jumps up with "Stuka Dives", taking grips, and generally screwing around. I can go three minutes, but it's much more fun to go two minutes and whoop it up.

Chuck

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Any sissy can fall the fastest or slowest.

Maybe wingsuit competitions should include a CAFE race type (from the amateur-built airplane world) competition that includes both scores so that the competitor with the widest spread (fastest and slowest) of fall-rates is recognized.
The final score should also include some measure of horizontal distance travelled.

[ManBird 0]

Quote

My average flight in this position, with arms bent and hands well in front of my upper body, from 14,000ft to deployment at 5000ft, is 2 and a half minutes. If I straighten my arms and bring my hands level with my sides and reduce the curve across the leading edge then I rarely pass 1 and a half minutes.

I did notice that you changed the figures a bit (49MPH is totally normal on a Classic -- especially if you're tall and skinny). It sounds like you're "hugging the air." In other words, you're flying in a "stall" position. You can get a good fall rate this way, but you don't go anywhere -- not really flying. When you flatten out and fully extend everything, your fall rate will go up a bit, but you should get a much better glide. If you're gaining 20mph in fall rate by flatten out, then there's something you aren't doing right.

People always ask, "what's the best arm" position, when they should be asking, "what's the best leg" position. I suggest that you pay more attention to your legs than your arms. Make sure your knees are locked, toes pointed, full extension on everything. If you fly your legs right, you'll see your glide go up and your fall rate go down.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Courteney 0]

I hear what you and Tonto are saying but unfortunately for the time being solo's are all I can do as there's no one else to flock with until Dec.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!