ManBird 0 #1 June 16, 2004 In flying the Crossbow, I found a few things I didn't like about the arm cutaway handle: - Allows cutaway cables to "creep" out of closing loops - Requires a link to be unfastened/fastened to put on suit - Forgetting to fasten the link allowed cables to "creep" inside suit, making cutaway impossible From the front, the MTR-2's handle looks really different. I'm assuming they've addressed these issues, but am wondering what they did to do it. Does anyone have, or could anyone take, some pictures of the arm cutaway handle. Or at least give a detailed description? If you could get a hot Czech chick to model it, that'd be great."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #2 June 16, 2004 The Matter two has a dual teflon ( same material as your rigs ) cable per side. Mine is not here but I think it feeds through seven loop-grommets per side. The first cable goes through 3 loops, the second through the last four. This, it would seem to me, is to cut down on the resistance or pull force required. It is actually one cable folded back through a collar that creates the loop. Both cables stick out of two little slots on the chest . These two loops are attached to the cuttaway handle seen in your pic via a single french link. The Cuttaway handle has an internal stiffener that is seated into two slots covering the french link and yellow cables. To execute the cuttaway you simply grab the loop of fabric sewn to the handle and pull away from you. The french link must be (undone/ recoupled) and stiffener ( removed/inserted) to don the suit but only on one side and it is not hard at all. Its a small price to pay for a suit that can be removed from you rig via 4 short zippers instead of the bird-man cuttaway system. Which to some new wingers can be troubling and again for wingers with experience not hard at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #3 June 16, 2004 On the MTR1 we have at our DZ, the french link has been replaced by the same pulltab thingie that connects RSL's. Much easier! Can't think why they have not changed that on the MTR2, I'm sure it has been suggested to them. Haven't jumped a MTR2 yet, but hope to do so this summer when they bring demo suits to our DZ. I think this may be a suit I'm gonna like... 'cept for the french link! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #4 June 16, 2004 Thanks Dragon I will look into it for mine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #5 June 16, 2004 QuoteOn the MTR1 we have at our DZ, the french link has been replaced by the same pulltab thingie that connects RSL's. Much easier! Can't think why they have not changed that on the MTR2, I'm sure it has been suggested to them. The link has not been changed for at least 2 reasons: 1) If the RSL shackle were to release unnoticed then you may not be able to cutaway when needed. Matter Clothing doesn't want to take this risk. People of course may modify their suits however they wish, but Matter does not endorse such mods. 2) A Rapide link costs about 50 cents. A stainless steel RSL type shackle is over $20.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #6 June 16, 2004 QuoteFrom the front, the MTR-2's handle looks really different. I'm assuming they've addressed these issues, A MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were. Quote- Allows cutaway cables to "creep" out of closing loops The length of the cables and the design of the tuck tab handle make this dificult to happen. Quote- Requires a link to be unfastened/fastened to put on suit Eh, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. It's a very easy system to operate, and very easy to check prior to boarding the A/C while geared up by yourself. The same can't be said of some other suits. I guess it depends on what you are comfortable with. Quote- Forgetting to fasten the link allowed cables to "creep" inside suit, making cutaway impossible Forgetting to do a proper gearcheck on any wingsuit is a problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #7 June 16, 2004 QuoteA MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were.Dude, enough with the defense. I'm really not trying to attack the suit or say that it is a Crossbow. I'm merely using the Crossbow as a point of reference. People who fly GTis ask what to expect from the S3. Does anybody attack them for using it as a reference? According to what I've heard thus far, it has the exact same "guts" as the Crossbow arm cutaway system. It apparently has a different handle and material and less loop-grommets. You can say the Matter suits are not Crossbows in the same way that the S3 is not the Classic. Different performance, but same foundation. BirdMan suits are ALL essentially a jumpsuit with three wings. The wings are attached to the body through a series of tabs, which allow for custom placement of emergency handles. There are two body zippers and zippers outside the legs. The Crossbow, Matter suits, and S-Fly ALL treat the body and wings as essentially one piece. There is one zipper on the body. The arm cutaway system is on the leading edge of the wing. It consists of two cables with individual housings (to reduce the pull distance needed for a cutaway) which connect to a stiff handle on the chest, using a link. The sides of the handle are stored in two pockets. The suit is connected to the rig using zippers, leaving non-adjustable openings for the emergency handles (which are typically located low enough to accomodate any rig). Edit: The MTR-2 is different in that it has zippers on the leg wing. A MTR-2 is not a Crossbow. I hear you. I understand that. I'm not talking about performance or fabric -- I'm talking about the arm cutaway system -- which is nearly identical. My GTi is Atmotex and new GTis are all ZP -- same suit. I've even commented over at Flybirdman.com that the MTR-2 was one of the most adventurous designs in the wingsuit world when it came out (http://www.flybirdman.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=444;), but to deny that there isn't a lot of the design from the Crossbow is just plain nuts. Note that Fly Your Body was about to sue Matter for taking the S-Fly design and making the MTR-1 out of it (http://www.base-jump.com/index.php?Tp=news&Lang=fr&Id=77) and that the S-Fly is a Crossbow upgrade (http://www.flybirdman.com/equipment/sfly_info.html). The suits are so similar that there's even a page at Flybirdman.com that details the subtle differences between the Crossbow, S-Fly, and MTR-1 -- http://www.flybirdman.com/equipment/smtr_compare.html. It's a point of reference for me. I generally refer to suits as "three-wing", "one-wing", and "wrist-to-ankle", the same way I might refer to road vehicles as "cars", "trucks", and "motorcycles". This is structural categorization, not performance -- which can't really be categorized, because each pilot utilizes each suit differently. My little Crossbow review over at flybirdman.com goes into more detail about some issues: http://www.flybirdman.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=815; In the responses, there's discussion about "cable creep" and why there are two cables. As far as checking the link, that's sort of in line with the leg strap thing -- NOWHERE near as serious -- just in that it's one of those things that should be part of the gear check, but it could be missed, and no one would notice. However, the chance of forgetting the link, having a cable creep into the suit, AND being unable to get the zipper undone seems very unlikely on the MTR-2, though it's more likely than one might think on the Crossbow."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #8 June 17, 2004 Thanks, Glen. That is exactly how the Crossbow's system works, but less loop-grommets. On the slits near the body zipper, is there a grommet, or is it just a slit in the material? On this Crossbow, it's just a slit. It's very easy to pull the collared end of the cable through the slit. It was designed to prevent this, but ~160 jumps on this suit have caused the slit to wear. This is what I meant by the cable creeping into the suit if the link isn't on properly (or at all)."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #9 June 17, 2004 Its just a slit but the material is thick there due to the area being the backer for the little housing that the cuttaway handle slides into. The matter 2 ,as it has been explained to me, is designed to address all of the weaknesses in the design of all of the other Mono-wing suits. Matter wants to be a very customer driven company and greatly value input from all of the previous mono-wing users out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #10 June 17, 2004 Quote Its just a slit but the material is thick there due to the area being the backer for the little housing that the cuttaway handle slides into. The matter 2 ,as it has been explained to me, is designed to address all of the weaknesses in the design of all of the other Mono-wing suits. Matter wants to be a very customer driven company and greatly value input from all of the previous mono-wing users out there.Ah, now there's a big difference in the two suits. On the Crossbow, the housing just "floats" in the shoulder."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #11 June 17, 2004 QuoteQuote- Requires a link to be unfastened/fastened to put on suit Eh, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. It's a very easy system to operate, and very easy to check prior to boarding the A/C while geared up by yourself. The same can't be said of some other suits.Well, this can't be said of other suits because they don't have the same cutaway system. I can see my handles and cables, and touch the cables on the back of my suit. Being that my cables are visible from the outside of the suit, others can see them, as well. 'Tis what I prefer."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #12 June 17, 2004 QuoteDude, enough with the defense. Whoa. Relax. Who's getting defensive? QuoteI'm really not trying to attack the suit or say that it is a Crossbow. According to what I've heard thus far, it has the exact same "guts" as the Crossbow arm cutaway system Why don't you pass your judgment after you see one? QuoteThere is one zipper on the body. The MTR-2 has 5 Airtight YKK Zippers opening from the neck of the suit. The S-Fly has 1 zipper opening at the neck, and 4 that open from the bottom of the wings. QuoteNote that Fly Your Body was about to sue Matter for taking the S-Fly design and making the MTR-1 out of it That's a preposterous claim. I doubt you have the corroboration to back it up. Loic worked with Cedric to create the MTR-1. When business ideals were found to be different there was a parting of the ways. Cedric then continued to work with ITV the company that did the research, development, and early production of some Crossbow and derivatives. Matter and ITV partnered to create the MTR-1 as a stepping-stone to something better. The MTR-2. QuoteIn the responses, there's discussion about "cable creep" and why there are two cables. "Cable creep" is not a phenomena encountered by the MTR-2. The checking of the cutaway system is part of the gear up procedures, and is not a big deal. It's checked about as easily as a chest strap, usually when zipping up the suit. If it's a problem, the pilot in question might want to think about taking up the sport of horseshoes. Steve, As enthusiastic as you are, you really should relax. You've not seen an MTR-1 or 2 so you don't know what differences there may be. I've mentioned before you ought to broaden your horizons to give yourself some perspective. Creating what you believe to be factual reviews out of 2nd, 3rd or more had information is not helping anyone. What's your agenda? You won't find me speaking about the functionality of the Crossbow very often as I have just two jumps on one and probably won’t have an opportunity to jump one again. Likewise I have little to say about the S-Fly as I've only examined one and it was way to small for me. I can easily make comparisons to the Birdman line of products as I have over 350 jumps on them including the Classic, Classic 2, GTi, S1, and S3 suit. You won't find me bad mouthing them as I have had a lot of fun in them and still fly my S3 on occasion. Add to that I consider Jari to be a friend. Heck I sold a GTi through SQ1 last week. In a conversation with the man we agreed that a little competition would probably end up improving the market, and generating more interest. The point is I have nothing to be defensive about, no hidden agenda, and nothing to loose. I wish continue the teaching I began a couple of years ago in NorCal, and welcome more people to the flock. My training center offers instruction in any type of suit, we just happen to provide Matter Demos.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbla4024 0 #13 June 17, 2004 But I saw both Crossbow and MTR-1 and difference is minimal. I have to say that MTR-1 is almost exact copy of Crossbow. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #14 June 17, 2004 Yes. And as you state there are differences. It's not surprising that the MTR-1 and Crossbow are similar. Loic was involved in the design of the MTR-1. Loic was also involved with the Crossbow. What's your point? Birdman products are pretty close to the suits Patrick de Gayardon was flying. So what?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbla4024 0 #15 June 17, 2004 I'm almost sure there is difference between inspiration and copying. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #16 June 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's your point? Birdman products are pretty close to the suits Patrick de Gayardon was flying. So what?The point is that anytime someone tries to use the Crossbow as a point of reference, you keep retorting, "It's not a Crossbow!" We get it. It's not a Crossbow. Being probably the most authoritative person on Matter suits in the US, information about them is sought from you. Rather than compare and contrast to give us a better understanding of the suit, you have been getting defensive every time you feel the suit may undergo criticism. No one but Patrick flew Patrick's suit, so no one cares to make a comparison. People have flown Crossbows, and the MTR-2 has clearly evolved from this suit. Therefore, people are going to ask in what ways the suit has evolved. I'd be very surprised if I was the first. Yes, I do have an agenda -- I want to learn more about the MTR-2! I've even contacted you about demoing one, and plan to do so when we first meet (which will probably be at the boogie in Eloy). So far, Glen has been extremely informative, and Matter's US rep hasn't told me a thing outside of, "some guy did well on his first flight." I realize that you have a bit of a vested interest in Matter's gear, so there has to be some sales angle, but don't get all Dan Preston about it every time someone asks a question or criticizes the product. I'm not asking if it's the greatest thing in the world, I'm asking about how much progress has been made to the design since the Crossbow. More suit manufacturers will be added to the roster by the end of the year. Two are making suits that drastically improve on different types flight, and they just might smoke everything out there in their respective goals. All manufacturers (probably five by the end of the year) are going to undergo a lot of criticism, justification, and comparison. Denial and defense will not make a good sales tactic in what is already becoming a more diverse market. BTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. The link I provided was on an article that was written at the time that the MTR-1 came out. They did work on the suit together, and then Cedric took it to Matter for manufacture. Every former Crossbow pilot that saw the MTR-1 claimed that it was just a better built Crossbow."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #17 June 17, 2004 QuoteBTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. You still haven't provided evidence of this. Quote The link I provided was on an article that was written at the time that the MTR-1 came out. They did work on the suit together, and then Cedric took it to Matter for manufacture. Loic came to Matter to see about having Matter build a design concept of his with input from Cedric who has been in the clothing industry for some years. Quote Every former Crossbow pilot that saw the MTR-1 claimed that it was just a better built Crossbow. Really? Everyone? All of them? Names? Generalizations are not credible. Not only that but I don't think I've ever said there is a large difference between the two (Crossbow, and MTR-1) other than quality of manufacture. Steve, I'd be happy to answer any specific questions about the MTR-2 you have. But you haven't asked many. I think I've answered the ones you have asked, however you seem to refute my answers You've made bold unsupported statements that compare the MTR-2 to other products, some no longer produced. I've stated that you're incorrect in those assumptions, which you also don't seem to believe. Comparing me to Dan Preston is laughable. If it makes you happy to put me on some sort of evil pedestal so you have someone to take pot shots at and puff your self up into some form of self defined importance, be my guest. I'm gonna go make a jump. Anyone coming?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #18 June 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteBTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. You still haven't provided evidence of this.??? I just did! Use a translation site on the link I provided. QuoteSteve, I'd be happy to answer any specific questions about the MTR-2 you have. But you haven't asked many.So, asking about the construction of the slit for the cutaway cable isn't specific? ALL I've asked have been very, very specific questions. QuoteLoic came to Matter to see about having Matter build a design concept of his with input from Cedric who has been in the clothing industry for some years.After the relationship with Parasport ended, Loic and Zun hooked up with Solomon to redesign the Crossbow. Matter was approached for manufacture. Matter did NOT design the suit and they never had authorization to manufacture it. Because of this, Fly Your Body was taking action against Matter. This was reported on the French BASE association's web site one year ago today. Anyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. It's right here in plain Eng--er, French! http://www.base-jump.com/index.php?Tp=news&Lang=fr&Id=77 QuoteIls ont été en contact avec Matter pour reprendre la production mais celà n'a pas été concluant. Matter met sur le marché une copie conforme de cette combinaison sans autorisation. Nous gérons actuellement ce problème. QuoteI think I've answered the ones you have asked, however you seem to refute my answersThink about it -- I ask about the arm cutaway system compared to the Crossbow. You respond, "MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow". A) That was no sort of an answer and B) when the system was described, it turns out that it IS the same. Also, half your answers are opinions/sales pitches (hence the DP comparison, which I admit was harsh), and I really can't take an opinion as an answer to a technical question. Yes, I am refuting some of your answers because not all of them acceptable or correct. QuoteI don't think I've ever said there is a large difference between the two (Crossbow, and MTR-1) other than quality of manufacture.You did in this very thread:QuoteMTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were. You are taking my doubts about this suit FAR too personally, and I really wish you wouldn't. I'm not trying to upset you. I do have doubts and criticisms about Matter's suit and the company in general. That's the suit and the company, NOT you. So please don't take a shot at the suit as a shot at you. I apologize for upsetting you. I'm really trying to get info on this suit. Matter's web site tells me nothing and you seem to have a VERY strange approach to relaying information. I'm writing a book called, "Everything I know about MTR-2's I learned from Glen"."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #19 June 17, 2004 QuoteMatter was approached for manufacture. Matter uses ITV to manufacture wingsuits. Matter created the design for the MTR-1 in partnership with Loic (Fly You Body) and ITV. ITV was involved in the R&D on the original crossbow, and therefore has the right to utilize such R&D. Since Matter was paying the bills, and ITV doing the construction, who do you think has the rights to any design work. Notice the the MTR-1 has noticable differences. It's kind of a dead issue as it's not even being produced any longer. I'm going to table that discussion now. QuoteAnyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. You've taken one sentence and turned it into a conspiricy theory "EVERYONE" knows about. Uh-huh. QuoteYou are taking my doubts about this suit FAR too personally, and I really wish you wouldn't. I'm not trying to upset you. I do have doubts and criticisms about Matter's suit and the company in general. That's the suit and the company, NOT you. So please don't take a shot at the suit as a shot at you. I apologize for upsetting you. I'm really trying to get info on this suit. Matter's web site tells me nothing and you seem to have a VERY strange approach to relaying information. Quite frankly, you're not bothering me. I don't feel (other than your Dan Preston reference) that you've attacked me personally. I think you suffer from an ego complex which pushes you to be an "expert". You've shown this from the very day you started posting here. Steve, all the best to you. I still think you ought to put down the wingsuit for a few hundred jumps (as I've said long ago) and become part of the skydiving comunity. I suggest we get back to the topic of this forum and discus things pertaining to wing suit and wing suit flight.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #20 June 17, 2004 QuoteSince Matter was paying the bills, and ITV doing the construction, who do you think has the rights to any design work. Notice the the MTR-1 has noticable differences. It's kind of a dead issue as it's not even being produced any longer. I'm going to table that discussion now. Paying for manufacture does not equal ownership of design rights. Even if it does, the point is that they not design it -- the design was a Crossbow upgrade. QuoteQuoteAnyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. You've taken one sentence and turned it into a conspiricy theory "EVERYONE" knows about. Uh-huh.Dude, there was a lot of discussion about this on many sites, including this one. Search for MTR-1 in the wingsuit and BASE forums and look for entries over summer (June and July) of 2003. QuoteQuite frankly, you're not bothering me. I don't feel (other than your Dan Preston reference) that you've attacked me personally.That's good. The DP comment was more screwing around than anything, but I do have to take that one back and apologize. NO ONE deserves such an insult. QuoteI think you suffer from an ego complex which pushes you to be an "expert". You've shown this from the very day you started posting here.I ask a lot of questions. How does this say to you that I have an "ego complex. I fly wingsuits a lot and I pay a LOT of attention to what's going on when I fly. I've picked up some knowledge along the way and I love to share it, the same way it was shared with me. I'm really not going for the ego stroke. It's hard to convey that in cold text. QuoteI still think you ought to put down the wingsuit for a few hundred jumps (as I've said long ago) and become part of the skydiving comunity.Uh, no, er... what? So, by this reasoning... a hardcore ar-dubber isn't part of the skydiving community because s/he doesn't freefly or do tandems. With the exception of tracking and swooping, I really have no other interest in this sport (in terms of disciplines to practice). Falling straight down just isn't my thing. The same could be said about a lot of belly flyers, instructors, freeflyers, etc, and they are every bit as much a part of the skydiving community. Lay off of my only reason to jump? No. What YOU need to do is just accept that I'm a wingsuit-obsessive asshole with a lot to say and a lot to do, and that's not going to change anytime soon. ;)"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #21 June 19, 2004 .... just accept that I'm a wingsuit-obsessive asshole .... ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hah! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 June 16, 2004 QuoteOn the MTR1 we have at our DZ, the french link has been replaced by the same pulltab thingie that connects RSL's. Much easier! Can't think why they have not changed that on the MTR2, I'm sure it has been suggested to them. The link has not been changed for at least 2 reasons: 1) If the RSL shackle were to release unnoticed then you may not be able to cutaway when needed. Matter Clothing doesn't want to take this risk. People of course may modify their suits however they wish, but Matter does not endorse such mods. 2) A Rapide link costs about 50 cents. A stainless steel RSL type shackle is over $20.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #6 June 16, 2004 QuoteFrom the front, the MTR-2's handle looks really different. I'm assuming they've addressed these issues, A MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were. Quote- Allows cutaway cables to "creep" out of closing loops The length of the cables and the design of the tuck tab handle make this dificult to happen. Quote- Requires a link to be unfastened/fastened to put on suit Eh, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. It's a very easy system to operate, and very easy to check prior to boarding the A/C while geared up by yourself. The same can't be said of some other suits. I guess it depends on what you are comfortable with. Quote- Forgetting to fasten the link allowed cables to "creep" inside suit, making cutaway impossible Forgetting to do a proper gearcheck on any wingsuit is a problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #7 June 16, 2004 QuoteA MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were.Dude, enough with the defense. I'm really not trying to attack the suit or say that it is a Crossbow. I'm merely using the Crossbow as a point of reference. People who fly GTis ask what to expect from the S3. Does anybody attack them for using it as a reference? According to what I've heard thus far, it has the exact same "guts" as the Crossbow arm cutaway system. It apparently has a different handle and material and less loop-grommets. You can say the Matter suits are not Crossbows in the same way that the S3 is not the Classic. Different performance, but same foundation. BirdMan suits are ALL essentially a jumpsuit with three wings. The wings are attached to the body through a series of tabs, which allow for custom placement of emergency handles. There are two body zippers and zippers outside the legs. The Crossbow, Matter suits, and S-Fly ALL treat the body and wings as essentially one piece. There is one zipper on the body. The arm cutaway system is on the leading edge of the wing. It consists of two cables with individual housings (to reduce the pull distance needed for a cutaway) which connect to a stiff handle on the chest, using a link. The sides of the handle are stored in two pockets. The suit is connected to the rig using zippers, leaving non-adjustable openings for the emergency handles (which are typically located low enough to accomodate any rig). Edit: The MTR-2 is different in that it has zippers on the leg wing. A MTR-2 is not a Crossbow. I hear you. I understand that. I'm not talking about performance or fabric -- I'm talking about the arm cutaway system -- which is nearly identical. My GTi is Atmotex and new GTis are all ZP -- same suit. I've even commented over at Flybirdman.com that the MTR-2 was one of the most adventurous designs in the wingsuit world when it came out (http://www.flybirdman.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=444;), but to deny that there isn't a lot of the design from the Crossbow is just plain nuts. Note that Fly Your Body was about to sue Matter for taking the S-Fly design and making the MTR-1 out of it (http://www.base-jump.com/index.php?Tp=news&Lang=fr&Id=77) and that the S-Fly is a Crossbow upgrade (http://www.flybirdman.com/equipment/sfly_info.html). The suits are so similar that there's even a page at Flybirdman.com that details the subtle differences between the Crossbow, S-Fly, and MTR-1 -- http://www.flybirdman.com/equipment/smtr_compare.html. It's a point of reference for me. I generally refer to suits as "three-wing", "one-wing", and "wrist-to-ankle", the same way I might refer to road vehicles as "cars", "trucks", and "motorcycles". This is structural categorization, not performance -- which can't really be categorized, because each pilot utilizes each suit differently. My little Crossbow review over at flybirdman.com goes into more detail about some issues: http://www.flybirdman.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=815; In the responses, there's discussion about "cable creep" and why there are two cables. As far as checking the link, that's sort of in line with the leg strap thing -- NOWHERE near as serious -- just in that it's one of those things that should be part of the gear check, but it could be missed, and no one would notice. However, the chance of forgetting the link, having a cable creep into the suit, AND being unable to get the zipper undone seems very unlikely on the MTR-2, though it's more likely than one might think on the Crossbow."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #8 June 17, 2004 Thanks, Glen. That is exactly how the Crossbow's system works, but less loop-grommets. On the slits near the body zipper, is there a grommet, or is it just a slit in the material? On this Crossbow, it's just a slit. It's very easy to pull the collared end of the cable through the slit. It was designed to prevent this, but ~160 jumps on this suit have caused the slit to wear. This is what I meant by the cable creeping into the suit if the link isn't on properly (or at all)."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #9 June 17, 2004 Its just a slit but the material is thick there due to the area being the backer for the little housing that the cuttaway handle slides into. The matter 2 ,as it has been explained to me, is designed to address all of the weaknesses in the design of all of the other Mono-wing suits. Matter wants to be a very customer driven company and greatly value input from all of the previous mono-wing users out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #10 June 17, 2004 Quote Its just a slit but the material is thick there due to the area being the backer for the little housing that the cuttaway handle slides into. The matter 2 ,as it has been explained to me, is designed to address all of the weaknesses in the design of all of the other Mono-wing suits. Matter wants to be a very customer driven company and greatly value input from all of the previous mono-wing users out there.Ah, now there's a big difference in the two suits. On the Crossbow, the housing just "floats" in the shoulder."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #11 June 17, 2004 QuoteQuote- Requires a link to be unfastened/fastened to put on suit Eh, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. It's a very easy system to operate, and very easy to check prior to boarding the A/C while geared up by yourself. The same can't be said of some other suits.Well, this can't be said of other suits because they don't have the same cutaway system. I can see my handles and cables, and touch the cables on the back of my suit. Being that my cables are visible from the outside of the suit, others can see them, as well. 'Tis what I prefer."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 June 17, 2004 QuoteDude, enough with the defense. Whoa. Relax. Who's getting defensive? QuoteI'm really not trying to attack the suit or say that it is a Crossbow. According to what I've heard thus far, it has the exact same "guts" as the Crossbow arm cutaway system Why don't you pass your judgment after you see one? QuoteThere is one zipper on the body. The MTR-2 has 5 Airtight YKK Zippers opening from the neck of the suit. The S-Fly has 1 zipper opening at the neck, and 4 that open from the bottom of the wings. QuoteNote that Fly Your Body was about to sue Matter for taking the S-Fly design and making the MTR-1 out of it That's a preposterous claim. I doubt you have the corroboration to back it up. Loic worked with Cedric to create the MTR-1. When business ideals were found to be different there was a parting of the ways. Cedric then continued to work with ITV the company that did the research, development, and early production of some Crossbow and derivatives. Matter and ITV partnered to create the MTR-1 as a stepping-stone to something better. The MTR-2. QuoteIn the responses, there's discussion about "cable creep" and why there are two cables. "Cable creep" is not a phenomena encountered by the MTR-2. The checking of the cutaway system is part of the gear up procedures, and is not a big deal. It's checked about as easily as a chest strap, usually when zipping up the suit. If it's a problem, the pilot in question might want to think about taking up the sport of horseshoes. Steve, As enthusiastic as you are, you really should relax. You've not seen an MTR-1 or 2 so you don't know what differences there may be. I've mentioned before you ought to broaden your horizons to give yourself some perspective. Creating what you believe to be factual reviews out of 2nd, 3rd or more had information is not helping anyone. What's your agenda? You won't find me speaking about the functionality of the Crossbow very often as I have just two jumps on one and probably won’t have an opportunity to jump one again. Likewise I have little to say about the S-Fly as I've only examined one and it was way to small for me. I can easily make comparisons to the Birdman line of products as I have over 350 jumps on them including the Classic, Classic 2, GTi, S1, and S3 suit. You won't find me bad mouthing them as I have had a lot of fun in them and still fly my S3 on occasion. Add to that I consider Jari to be a friend. Heck I sold a GTi through SQ1 last week. In a conversation with the man we agreed that a little competition would probably end up improving the market, and generating more interest. The point is I have nothing to be defensive about, no hidden agenda, and nothing to loose. I wish continue the teaching I began a couple of years ago in NorCal, and welcome more people to the flock. My training center offers instruction in any type of suit, we just happen to provide Matter Demos.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #13 June 17, 2004 But I saw both Crossbow and MTR-1 and difference is minimal. I have to say that MTR-1 is almost exact copy of Crossbow. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 June 17, 2004 Yes. And as you state there are differences. It's not surprising that the MTR-1 and Crossbow are similar. Loic was involved in the design of the MTR-1. Loic was also involved with the Crossbow. What's your point? Birdman products are pretty close to the suits Patrick de Gayardon was flying. So what?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #15 June 17, 2004 I'm almost sure there is difference between inspiration and copying. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #16 June 17, 2004 QuoteWhat's your point? Birdman products are pretty close to the suits Patrick de Gayardon was flying. So what?The point is that anytime someone tries to use the Crossbow as a point of reference, you keep retorting, "It's not a Crossbow!" We get it. It's not a Crossbow. Being probably the most authoritative person on Matter suits in the US, information about them is sought from you. Rather than compare and contrast to give us a better understanding of the suit, you have been getting defensive every time you feel the suit may undergo criticism. No one but Patrick flew Patrick's suit, so no one cares to make a comparison. People have flown Crossbows, and the MTR-2 has clearly evolved from this suit. Therefore, people are going to ask in what ways the suit has evolved. I'd be very surprised if I was the first. Yes, I do have an agenda -- I want to learn more about the MTR-2! I've even contacted you about demoing one, and plan to do so when we first meet (which will probably be at the boogie in Eloy). So far, Glen has been extremely informative, and Matter's US rep hasn't told me a thing outside of, "some guy did well on his first flight." I realize that you have a bit of a vested interest in Matter's gear, so there has to be some sales angle, but don't get all Dan Preston about it every time someone asks a question or criticizes the product. I'm not asking if it's the greatest thing in the world, I'm asking about how much progress has been made to the design since the Crossbow. More suit manufacturers will be added to the roster by the end of the year. Two are making suits that drastically improve on different types flight, and they just might smoke everything out there in their respective goals. All manufacturers (probably five by the end of the year) are going to undergo a lot of criticism, justification, and comparison. Denial and defense will not make a good sales tactic in what is already becoming a more diverse market. BTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. The link I provided was on an article that was written at the time that the MTR-1 came out. They did work on the suit together, and then Cedric took it to Matter for manufacture. Every former Crossbow pilot that saw the MTR-1 claimed that it was just a better built Crossbow."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 June 17, 2004 QuoteBTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. You still haven't provided evidence of this. Quote The link I provided was on an article that was written at the time that the MTR-1 came out. They did work on the suit together, and then Cedric took it to Matter for manufacture. Loic came to Matter to see about having Matter build a design concept of his with input from Cedric who has been in the clothing industry for some years. Quote Every former Crossbow pilot that saw the MTR-1 claimed that it was just a better built Crossbow. Really? Everyone? All of them? Names? Generalizations are not credible. Not only that but I don't think I've ever said there is a large difference between the two (Crossbow, and MTR-1) other than quality of manufacture. Steve, I'd be happy to answer any specific questions about the MTR-2 you have. But you haven't asked many. I think I've answered the ones you have asked, however you seem to refute my answers You've made bold unsupported statements that compare the MTR-2 to other products, some no longer produced. I've stated that you're incorrect in those assumptions, which you also don't seem to believe. Comparing me to Dan Preston is laughable. If it makes you happy to put me on some sort of evil pedestal so you have someone to take pot shots at and puff your self up into some form of self defined importance, be my guest. I'm gonna go make a jump. Anyone coming?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #18 June 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteBTW, "my claim" about Fly Your Body going after Matter is not preposterous. The event was very well known at the time. You still haven't provided evidence of this.??? I just did! Use a translation site on the link I provided. QuoteSteve, I'd be happy to answer any specific questions about the MTR-2 you have. But you haven't asked many.So, asking about the construction of the slit for the cutaway cable isn't specific? ALL I've asked have been very, very specific questions. QuoteLoic came to Matter to see about having Matter build a design concept of his with input from Cedric who has been in the clothing industry for some years.After the relationship with Parasport ended, Loic and Zun hooked up with Solomon to redesign the Crossbow. Matter was approached for manufacture. Matter did NOT design the suit and they never had authorization to manufacture it. Because of this, Fly Your Body was taking action against Matter. This was reported on the French BASE association's web site one year ago today. Anyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. It's right here in plain Eng--er, French! http://www.base-jump.com/index.php?Tp=news&Lang=fr&Id=77 QuoteIls ont été en contact avec Matter pour reprendre la production mais celà n'a pas été concluant. Matter met sur le marché une copie conforme de cette combinaison sans autorisation. Nous gérons actuellement ce problème. QuoteI think I've answered the ones you have asked, however you seem to refute my answersThink about it -- I ask about the arm cutaway system compared to the Crossbow. You respond, "MTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow". A) That was no sort of an answer and B) when the system was described, it turns out that it IS the same. Also, half your answers are opinions/sales pitches (hence the DP comparison, which I admit was harsh), and I really can't take an opinion as an answer to a technical question. Yes, I am refuting some of your answers because not all of them acceptable or correct. QuoteI don't think I've ever said there is a large difference between the two (Crossbow, and MTR-1) other than quality of manufacture.You did in this very thread:QuoteMTR-2 or (MTR-1 for that matter) is not a Crossbow, they never were. You are taking my doubts about this suit FAR too personally, and I really wish you wouldn't. I'm not trying to upset you. I do have doubts and criticisms about Matter's suit and the company in general. That's the suit and the company, NOT you. So please don't take a shot at the suit as a shot at you. I apologize for upsetting you. I'm really trying to get info on this suit. Matter's web site tells me nothing and you seem to have a VERY strange approach to relaying information. I'm writing a book called, "Everything I know about MTR-2's I learned from Glen"."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 June 17, 2004 QuoteMatter was approached for manufacture. Matter uses ITV to manufacture wingsuits. Matter created the design for the MTR-1 in partnership with Loic (Fly You Body) and ITV. ITV was involved in the R&D on the original crossbow, and therefore has the right to utilize such R&D. Since Matter was paying the bills, and ITV doing the construction, who do you think has the rights to any design work. Notice the the MTR-1 has noticable differences. It's kind of a dead issue as it's not even being produced any longer. I'm going to table that discussion now. QuoteAnyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. You've taken one sentence and turned it into a conspiricy theory "EVERYONE" knows about. Uh-huh. QuoteYou are taking my doubts about this suit FAR too personally, and I really wish you wouldn't. I'm not trying to upset you. I do have doubts and criticisms about Matter's suit and the company in general. That's the suit and the company, NOT you. So please don't take a shot at the suit as a shot at you. I apologize for upsetting you. I'm really trying to get info on this suit. Matter's web site tells me nothing and you seem to have a VERY strange approach to relaying information. Quite frankly, you're not bothering me. I don't feel (other than your Dan Preston reference) that you've attacked me personally. I think you suffer from an ego complex which pushes you to be an "expert". You've shown this from the very day you started posting here. Steve, all the best to you. I still think you ought to put down the wingsuit for a few hundred jumps (as I've said long ago) and become part of the skydiving comunity. I suggest we get back to the topic of this forum and discus things pertaining to wing suit and wing suit flight.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #20 June 17, 2004 QuoteSince Matter was paying the bills, and ITV doing the construction, who do you think has the rights to any design work. Notice the the MTR-1 has noticable differences. It's kind of a dead issue as it's not even being produced any longer. I'm going to table that discussion now. Paying for manufacture does not equal ownership of design rights. Even if it does, the point is that they not design it -- the design was a Crossbow upgrade. QuoteQuoteAnyone who was paying attention at the time knows this. You've taken one sentence and turned it into a conspiricy theory "EVERYONE" knows about. Uh-huh.Dude, there was a lot of discussion about this on many sites, including this one. Search for MTR-1 in the wingsuit and BASE forums and look for entries over summer (June and July) of 2003. QuoteQuite frankly, you're not bothering me. I don't feel (other than your Dan Preston reference) that you've attacked me personally.That's good. The DP comment was more screwing around than anything, but I do have to take that one back and apologize. NO ONE deserves such an insult. QuoteI think you suffer from an ego complex which pushes you to be an "expert". You've shown this from the very day you started posting here.I ask a lot of questions. How does this say to you that I have an "ego complex. I fly wingsuits a lot and I pay a LOT of attention to what's going on when I fly. I've picked up some knowledge along the way and I love to share it, the same way it was shared with me. I'm really not going for the ego stroke. It's hard to convey that in cold text. QuoteI still think you ought to put down the wingsuit for a few hundred jumps (as I've said long ago) and become part of the skydiving comunity.Uh, no, er... what? So, by this reasoning... a hardcore ar-dubber isn't part of the skydiving community because s/he doesn't freefly or do tandems. With the exception of tracking and swooping, I really have no other interest in this sport (in terms of disciplines to practice). Falling straight down just isn't my thing. The same could be said about a lot of belly flyers, instructors, freeflyers, etc, and they are every bit as much a part of the skydiving community. Lay off of my only reason to jump? No. What YOU need to do is just accept that I'm a wingsuit-obsessive asshole with a lot to say and a lot to do, and that's not going to change anytime soon. ;)"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #21 June 19, 2004 .... just accept that I'm a wingsuit-obsessive asshole .... ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hah! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #22 June 21, 2004 OK, this horse is officially beat to death. Next thread please. I like both of you guys (though neither one of you is wired quite right), so please take any further mono-wing arguments to PM as I believe both of you have have firmly stated your case, or what you believe to be your case. Where's the love? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #23 June 21, 2004 Dead? Why? I'm still waiting for list of significant design improvements between Crossbow and MTR-1. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
