Wingsuit instruction without the BM-I rating

[ManBird 0]

Here are my thoughts on the whole matter of instruction and the BM-I rating. This is totally open for debate. I know some people disagree with this, and I'd like to hear specifically why.

I take new birds up all the time and love doing it. I don't have a BM-I rating, but by default officially have the role of wingsuit instruction for new birds and briefing of old birds at Skydive Oregon. I don't think they really recognize non-USPA ratings, anyway (nor do I, but wouldn't mind having the BM-I). To make the best of it, I get a lot of advice from AFF instructors and our S&TA. I've also worked with management and the S&TA to establish policy (unfortunately a lot of it is through trial and error). What we have now lies somewhere between BirdMan's original course and higher level AFF course (post level 7), with gear requirements and a very, very specific flight plan. It's still a work in progress, but it's getting better and better.

I also aim to get new birds to fly better sooner. While we're adamant about safety, I also like to make sure they get the most out of their first flights and leave with the knowledge of the correct body position and how to work towards better flying on their own, as opposed to, "come back for more coaching when you want to work on your fall rate". I don't like to do any less than three jumps with a new bird, and I don't think I ever have. If I could dedicate a day to doing five with a first time flyer, I bet I could get them flying at where I was with 150 wingsuit flights in just those five jumps.

As far as who I'll take up, it's a case by case basis. I realize that I am responsible for my student (though I wish I felt that way before I let a friend fly my suit with his Spinetto). If I feel that the student will get me in trouble, I won't take them up. There are people with less than 100 jumps right now that are great trackers and responsible jumpers that I am dying to take up if I could score a suit that would fit them, and there are people with over 500 jumps that I wouldn't let touch my suit. Jump numbers, to me, are fairly irrelevant.

In other words, I think the BM-I is a great bonus in that you can get demo suits and be a dealer, but is not necessary for instruction. It says that you've made the effort to know the instructor's checklist and can relay the information, and that you can, to an extent, stay with a student. But this is knowledge and ability that you will get from experience, anyway. In terms of knowledge, you can just go to bird-man.com and grab the instructor's checklist... a great resource. Team Extreme gives a kick ass high performance canopy course with no official high performance canopy instruction rating. You don't learn CReW or freeflying through USPA recommendations or any official instructors. When it comes to wingsuit instruction, who will be more qualified: the BM-I with 50 flights or the guy with 500 flights that has acquired his knowledge through experience?

Another point is that while BirdMan is the market leader, and IMO makes the best suits, it won't make any sense for me to need a BM-I rating when someone shows up with their S-Fly, MTR-1, or a used Crossbow. What I'll need is experience in a one wing suit (which is why I just bought the S-Fly) and wingsuit experience in general.

As far as jump numbers go, I believe that as the quality of the instruction and instructors goes up, the recommended jump numbers can come down. The catch 22 right now is that you aren't allowed to fly a suit until you have the ability to do so. If the first flight process is dummied down to where the first flight is less reliant on the student, much like AFF level 1, you're going to get people flying sooner. I see a lot of people getting into the sport with their eyes on flying a wingsuit, and they're doing 200 jumps, almost all tracking dives, to get there. Hell, if you got off of AFF and then max tracked on your next 25 jumps, and were trained on those jumps with wingsuit flying as a goal, and you're serious and responsible with your flight and safety, you don't need to track for another 155 jumps to slap on a Classic II. Especially if you have a competent instructor that can stay down with you to monitor and potentially control your flight.

Inversely, if you have a DGIT with 1,000 jumps, you wouldn't want to wrap him up in a wingsuit. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[VectorBoy 0]

Agreed. Whats DGIT?

[ManBird 0]

Dead Guy in Training.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[VectorBoy 0]

Yeah I get it now. I tend not to do any kind of jumps with this type.

[greybeard 0]

check pm.

[diablopilot 2]

I agree with your initial Idea that A BMI rating is not the only way to train someone. rigging65 developed a very comprehensive training a couple of years ago program under which I had the privilege to train some new Birdman Flyers.

I do not in anyway agree with the need to reduce the current jump number requirements. I saw no reason to reduce them from 500. Since people tend to jump the gun anyway 500 often meant 300 for a "heads up" flyer. I do not want to see the same thing happen with a 100 jump wonder who has probably just received his first rig! Distracting a new jumper early on with a Birdman suit is doing them a disservice as well. (200 jumps is early by the way). At that level I'd rather see the person becoming proficient at jumping in groups (RW or FF) and working on the interpersonal skils that increase saftey and awareness in our sport.

Many new jumpers see Birdman Suits like fast canopies and shiny cars. They can be something that lets them "prove" themselves before they really need to.

EDIT:

Let me add that I think anyone who intends to be a Mentor/coach/instructor in a non-studet area should AT LEAST obtain and keep curent the bare minimum instructional rating their countries governing body has. In the US it would be the USPA coach rating. It's relativly easy to get and anyone who cannot complete the 3 day course has no business educating anyone in the sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PhreeZone 20]

Is there any chance you or Ryan could post your training programs?

As things currently stand I doubt I'll get my BM-I this fall/winter but I doubt I'll stop teaching new jumpers that show the skills how to fly a wingsuit (and can fit into my demo suit). I've only broken the 500 jump rule on 2 people and one of those was after a BM-I did their course, but was just unable to jump with them.

I think 400-500 jumps is about right to learn to fly a suit, but we are getting closer to PDG's prediction that one day the suits would be easy enough and safe enough to fly that even jumpers at 100 jumps could fly a suit and live.

I think that having a coach rating is a very fair entry point into instructing and a lot of the things that are covered in the Coach course help in talking about first flights.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ManBird 0]

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Many new jumpers see Birdman Suits like fast canopies and shiny cars. They can be something that lets them "prove" themselves before they really need to.

I agree. This is the exact kind of person, at any experience level, that I refuse to take up. With anybody, there are four things I look for, in this order:

Desire
Responsibility
Ability
Acceptance of Risk

If they are missing any one of these things, I don't take them up (sounds like BASE, doesn't it?). If someone wants to do it to experience it, as opposed to looking cool or doing it just to say they did it, then they have the desire to do it. If they follow traffic patterns, check their altitude, don't fly their body or canopy outside of their ability, etc, then they just might be responsible jumpers. If they are current on stable, on-heading max tracking, canopy problem handling, and other things that are beneficial to wingsuit flying, they just might have the ability. After telling them what mals and problems I've had, what potential dangers there are, and body position sensitivity, I ask if they're ready for that. If they are answering "yes" honestly, they are accepting the risks.

I've also tried to make all these things very clear to the S&TAs so that they can assist in judgement calls for jumpers I don't know well (being that I obviously don't jump with any of them when they don't have a suit). I and the student also get approval from our S&TA before taking anyone up. Some people have asked to go up and the S&TA has advised against it.

I like the idea of getting a coach rating. I think that for any type of instruction in skydiving, it's a great place to start. Even with wingsuits, I'd put the coach rating before the BM-I. I don't have a coach rating yet, but will be taking the next course. In the meantime, I've been learning how to teach skydivers by very experienced AFF instructors, and I am supervised by them when giving instruction.

The 100-jump wonder situation I presented is somewhat hypothetical. In reality, most people don't exhibit all these traits until they are at least a few hundred jumps into the sport. Some people never do. In DeLand, a guy went on his first Classic flight with 60 jumps and kicked ass. Others have gone up with thousands of jumps behind them and sucked. There is one guy in particular that has about 70 jumps and isn't ready, but will be much sooner than others. I do see people that have started skydiving because they eventually want to fly a wingsuit. The training right now is, for the most part, not sufficient to get them in a suit at sub-200 jump numbers.

Something to keep in mind: You used to need 100 jumps on a round to fly a square.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[dgskydive 0]

Then why do you jump with Rob!?

Dom

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I eluded to this in another thread, but I will restate it here: It's my opinion that unless you possess the base-level instructional rating in your country, you really don't need to be "instructing" anything, no matter what your experience level in a certain discipline. A broad general knowledge of skydiving goes a long way in this sport and instructional experience is key to getting that knowledge. Unrated people have a habit of becoming "masters of self promotion" to gain notoriety, yet in most cases fail in the face of competition....There are an INCREDIBLE amount of freeflyers out there hanging up shingles and touting their "freefly schools" and "teams", yet they either don't do anything of worth in competition to rate calling themselves a "team" or they don't have any instructional skill at all, though they themselves are decent jumpers in that discipline.

There are a couple of people out in the field who have BM ratings who, in my first-hand experience, can't fly to save their ass. There are other non-rated flyers who are both great flyers, but whom I would not trust to teach a tooth-brushing class. Others still who are not yet rated have both the demonstrated airskills and proven teaching abilities to do the job right; Glen and Billvon are perfect examples of the latter. The bottom line here is that the BM-I is not going to be a "gimme" rating. There will absolutely not be any ill-prepared candidates walking out of any course I teach wearing the BM-I patch.


Chuck

[ManBird 0]

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There will absolutely not be any ill-prepared candidates walking out of any course I teach wearing the BM-I patch.

Which is exactly why I'd want to have you as an evaluator. I feel it'd be more valid that way.

In my defense; while I don't have a coach rating yet, and the course is definitely something I need to experience, I am not without training. As mentioned earlier, it was determined at one point that I would handle briefing and instruction on wingsuits at my DZ, but before I could do any of it, I had to be schooled up on training skydivers. I didn't get a formal coaching course, but I did get a few weekends of establishing a course and learning how to teach before I could take anyone up on their first flight (after the second person I ever took up had a mal). I still do all my instruction under our S&TA's supervision, who is quick to question my every action, if needed (and it hasn't really been needed lately). Plus, Joe Weber watches me like a hawk on the ground and from the plane.

The real test will be when I take Joe up for the first time, which should have happened by now. If I'm not a "coach" now, you can be sure I will be by the time I get him in the air.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[VectorBoy 0]

I don't see droping the jump number requirements for first flights below the 200 recommended by Bird-man inc. As I wouldn't recommend someone with less than those numbers flying camera or a freefly tube or strapping on a tandem rig. At low jump numbers its hard to have the skills to deal with the added equiptment work load.

[ManBird 0]

I agree. Right now, no one with that low of jump numbers should be going up in a wingsuit. I was speaking to the potential of getting in a suit earlier. We've all observed newer jumpers safely (and sometimes dangerously) get into gear and flying styles that we never dreamed anyone would be able to handle with their jump numbers. I've only been in the sport for three years, but it already freaks me out to see someone with 150 jumps properly flying their Stiletto loaded at 1.3. This is possible through a combination of training and the "right" person.

Some people just have better reaction time and the ability to stay calm and make good decisions under pressure. When those people are properly trained, they tend to get better at what they do in skydiving sooner. While no one is a natural at skydiving, some pick it up and perform more quickly than others. Send this type of person to the right canopy control school, and they'll fly their loaded Stiletto just fine at low jump numbers.

I can see the same thing for wingsuits. This doesn't mean that jump number recommendations should come down (they haven't for canopies). It just means that some exceptions could be comfortably made.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[diablopilot 2]

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As I wouldn't recommend someone with less than those numbers flying camera or a freefly tube or strapping on a tandem rig

USPA and the Manufactures say you need atleast 500 jumps and 3 years in the sport to put on that tandem rig.

I like the 500 jump number. You've got have been a little more serious to get to that point. If the number bor birdman jumps were to be set at 500 I'd be happy. I'm not saying SOME people couldn't be ready sooner, but then I'd evaluate on a case by case basis, and would have a little more backing for a refusal. Of course I've told people w/ over 1000 that I didn't think they'd ever be ready for a Birdman jump.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

I think the tandem rating isn't relevant, because it's a whole different scenario when you get a student/first time skydiver involved. I think more than jump numbers, currency and jump maturity are what matters. I think we're all in agreement there. If someone has that by 150 jumps, and it has happened, then I think they're entitled to give a wingsuit a try. Realistically, though, that doesn't happen. People usually get either hundreds of jumps or years in the sport before they are ready to try this stuff out.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bodypilot1 0]

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I like the idea of getting a coach rating. I think that for any type of instruction in skydiving, it's a great place to start. Even with wingsuits, I'd put the coach rating before the BM-I. I don't have a coach rating yet, but will be taking the next course.
***

FYI:

Coach Course in hollister....

We will be hosting a coach course in hollister next month if i can get a few more people to sign up. It will be lots of fun and yes lots of BBQ and more.
Let me know. 1-800-FUN-JUMP office@1800funjump.com




Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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[ManBird 0]

Thanks for the tip. I think I'm just going to wait until next season when we have one at SDO or even closer. I doubt I'll be taking any birds up until then, anyway. Winter is here.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bodypilot1 0]

Joe's bringing the Otter down to the NC17 Boogie this weekend. Hop on it!
I am organizing flocking dives.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ManBird 0]

I put in a request, but I think Joe is pretty solid on not turning his jump planes into taxi services. If for no other reason to avoid a, "Hey, Steve got to do it, why can't I?" type of situation.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bodypilot1 0]

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I put in a request, but I think Joe is pretty solid on not turning his jump planes into taxi services. If for no other reason to avoid a, "Hey, Steve got to do it, why can't I?" type of situation.

Ya.
Besides that he's old.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ManBird 0]

HAHAHAA!!! Oh, man. But I'm sure he'd enjoy providing some sort of lecture the whole way down. He still needs to do his first wingsuit flight. A weekend away from AFF might be the time to do it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bodypilot1 0]

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He still needs to do his first wingsuit flight. A weekend away from AFF might be the time to do it.***
I'll see if I can get his old ass in a suit this weekend

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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[ManBird 0]

The jumpship has already left and goes to SSD after that. Not sure who's flying it, as JW is evidently still up here. Well, it should be a nice clear weekend here, anyway. 46° on the ground, but clear.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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