MakeItHappen 15 #26 September 26, 2004 Quote I usually stay about 25ft when doing a fly by. 5 to 10ft is abit too close regardless of experience. - FYI New SIM Section on Flybys with Wingsuits J. Flybys 1. Wing suits should not be flown by or in the proximity of any student jumps. 2. Wing suit jumps should not be made in the proximity of experienced jumpers without prior coordination with those jumpers. ... student jumps include tandems with unlicensed passengers. This almost became a BSR at the last BOD mtg. [See Motion 30 when the minutes are published.] The S&T Comm decided to put it in as a recommendation. If buzzing tandems with non-licensced jumpers as passengers continues, it probably will become a BSR. There is support for this, both on the BOD and from DZOS and tandem mfgs. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #27 September 27, 2004 Wording like "proximity" are way too vague. I can fly 1300 feet from a tandem and be in "proximity" even though I'm a quater mile away. Student canopies are even easier to end up that close on and never even possibly present an issue if I am opening at 3000 feet and pass them at 5000 feet a quater mile away.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydave114 0 #28 September 27, 2004 Don't you (uspa bod) have anything better to do than making up more unnecessary rules? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #29 September 27, 2004 Not to start an argument about buzzing tandems, but I have to agree with Phreezone. And I do usually jump at a non USPA drop zone so how would this rule apply... "IF" there is some type of BSR that is implemented though we should consider including "flocking" tracking jumps as part of this BSR also. As I have seen some pretty close calls with them flying back down the line of flight. ps. When are you going to get back to me in regards to Oct 30th jumps? -www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #30 September 27, 2004 Quote Wording like "proximity" are way too vague. It is a vague wording, but the intent of the dive is what is addressed. A pre-planned tandem buzz job is frowned upon (when the passenger is not licensed). A pre-planned buzz job by a CRW formation, where everyone knows that will happen and accepts the risks is ok, provided everyone knows and agrees. Adding a specific distance would not change the intent of the recommendation. How would x many feet separation be measured? Quote Don't you (uspa bod) have anything better to do than making up more unnecessary rules? The SIM section cited above is NOT a rule. It is a recommendation. It is on the same level as 'wear a helmet, AAD, altimeter or beeper' recommendations. I do not always wear a helmet, AAD, altimeter or beeper and have no problem with USPA recommending these items. I do realize that not following a recommendation may increase risks. Part of the reason for adding recommendations is to educate jumpers about the risks. In the case of buzzing tandems, risk is added to the passenger. In the case of me not wearing a helmet, AAD, altimeter or beeper, risk is added to me - no one else. Therein lies the difference. Buzzing a tandem with a student passenger is increasing risks for someone (the student) who generally will not know that the risks are increased and may not be covered by the waiver. Waivers do not protect the DZ, instructors, pilots, staff etc from negligent actions. A savvy attorney could argue that the recommendations represent industry standards and claim negligent actions if jumpers were buzzing tandems. There have been a handful of birdsuit buzz jobs by fixed objects that have resulted in collisions (and the death of the birdsuit jumper). These fatalities were by 'supposedly' expert birdsuit flyers. They supposedly could tell what their trajectory was. They, of course, were dead wrong on that account. The collision risk increases dramatically when the buzz object is also moving. If a birdsuit jumper miscalculates a buzz job by a tandem, there is a possibility of a triple fatality. There are strong indicators that this scenario may happen. One of the CRW formation buzz jobs had a birdsuit jumper come closer than what was expected by the CRW jumpers. USPA is aware of birdsuit buzz jobs. Most of these fall into two groups: tandem buzz jobs and buzz jobs by a group of experienced jumpers. The recommendation addresses each of these groups. Quote"IF" there is some type of BSR that is implemented though we should consider including "flocking" tracking jumps as part of this BSR also. As I have seen some pretty close calls with them flying back down the line of flight. Close calls between the flocking group and the regular freefall groups? or only among the flocking group? 'Wing suit jumps should not be made in the proximity of experienced jumpers without prior coordination with those jumpers.' and a proper flight path plan would cover the first aspect. Proper tracking after break-off would cover the second aspect. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydave114 0 #31 September 29, 2004 You say it's not a rule, but if its in writing, in an official publication, many, if not most DZO's will treat it as law. This is the type of thing that should be left to the discretion of the DZ and "parachutist-in-comand" I'm still doin' flybys and not wearing a helmet or aad either! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
