kkeenan 14 #1 December 6, 2006 I've heard differing opinions as to how experienced a jumper should be before learning CRW. What are the thoughts on this ? Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #2 December 7, 2006 It can vary as far as jump numbers go. I tend to look for people who have the mental capacity or what others may call awareness to deal with dynamic situations. Basic understanding of fundamentals pertaining to canopy flight concepts. As far as jump numbers go maybe more than 100 maybe a good base to start with. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #3 December 7, 2006 It depends on the type of CRW. I certainly wouldn't put someone on a heavily loaded Lightning young, but 2-way CRW with someone like me? Very early. I regularly do CRW with youngsters on 1-1 loaded Spectres and such here as early as 20 jumps. Its just the 2 of us and they're on a docile canopy. I have no issues with it. I wouldn't want them on a 16 way though! Way too much can go wrong there.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #4 December 7, 2006 I did a newbie camp at Sebastian with just over 40 jumps on a lightly (.93) loaded Lightning and really enjoyed it. I also realized that I'm far from ready to do any kind of serious CRW for quite some time, but I have something to look forward to....The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #5 December 7, 2006 Quote I wouldn't want them on a 16 way though! Way too much can go wrong there.. Shit, Wendy, there's probably way more that can go wrong jumping with you than with any 16-way ! _____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #6 December 7, 2006 Quote I also realized that I'm far from ready to do any kind of serious CRW for quite some time, .... Yeah, but the only way to get good at CRW is to do it. 2-ways is all the flying that you'll ever need to do._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #7 December 7, 2006 ASAP!!!! A current and qualified tutor, appropriate gear, a structured tutoring program, and . . . . !!!!!! Obviously as dod increases, the experience should match. But that is why you have structured training programs. Because you develop skills to deal with dod. dod = degree of difficulty. The person doing the tutoring must make a judgement call on the prospective student. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #8 December 7, 2006 QuoteASAP!!!! A current and qualified tutor, appropriate gear, a structured tutoring program, and . . . . !!!!!! Obviously as dod increases, the experience should match. But that is why you have structured training programs. Because you develop skills to deal with dod. dod = degree of difficulty. The person doing the tutoring must make a judgement call on the prospective student. I don't know what the guys training the Egyptians did but in general CRW doesn't have a strutured training program or a measure to qualify tutors. the BPA does, maybe we can borrow from them. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #9 December 7, 2006 QuoteIt depends on the type of CRW. I certainly wouldn't put someone on a heavily loaded Lightning young, but 2-way CRW with someone like me? Very early. I regularly do CRW with youngsters on 1-1 loaded Spectres and such here as early as 20 jumps. Its just the 2 of us and they're on a docile canopy. I have no issues with it. I wouldn't want them on a 16 way though! Way too much can go wrong there.. I think this goes right along with having the mental capacity to deal with things and being able to grasp canopy flight fundamentals. IMO The problem with taking them so young is that 1. No A license so they are only supposed to be jumping with a coach at that point. 2. Nothing against you, but teaching a new jumper how to do CRW with microlines and other poetenially unsafe equipment may later be bad for when your not around and they think they can tell someone else how then you have to unexperienced jumpers doing it with potentially unsafe equipment for their experience. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #10 December 7, 2006 Quotein general CRW doesn't have a strutured training program or a measure to qualify tutors You can pinch mine if you like: http://ozcrw.tripod.com/training.htm There is a CRW tutor rating in Oz. You are correct in that most people just learn from other people. BASE is similar. If you can improve this, feel free to email me and I'll add in your bits. The Egyptians used that same program. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #11 December 7, 2006 Typically they do have an A license when I get to em. I used to use 20 jumps as my number because for so many years 20 jumps was the A license minimum. I am also a USPA licensed Coach so that's not an issue :-) I'm legal.. I may be in the minority, but I really don't have a problem doing simple 2 and 3 way stacks - docile stuff, no aggressive rotations etc, with microlines. Its a non-event. What I wouldn't do is what some CRW rotation teams were doing a few years back (not sure if they still are) - putting microlines on their tiny rots canopies to gain more speed! Eek!!! W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #12 December 7, 2006 Quote I don't know what the guys training the Egyptians did but in general CRW doesn't have a strutured training program or a measure to qualify tutors. the BPA does, maybe we can borrow from them. That would mean USPA getting involved. The LAST thing I want is USPA telling CRW Dogs what they can & can't do, and who can & can't teach. When USPA gets involved it tends to unnecessarily cost people more money with little corresponding value being returned. My experience with younger jumpers and CRW is that they won't go near you as a tutor until they've seen you do lots of CRW and/or have a comfort level with your abilities and judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #13 December 7, 2006 Rots and seq both, actually ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LindaLu 0 #14 December 7, 2006 QuoteIt depends on the type of CRW. I certainly wouldn't put someone on a heavily loaded Lightning young, but 2-way CRW with someone like me? Very early. I regularly do CRW with youngsters on 1-1 loaded Spectres and such here as early as 20 jumps. Its just the 2 of us and they're on a docile canopy. I have no issues with it. Well I for one wish I would have started a lot earlier than I did. I sure wanted to! I like Wendy's approach with a docile canopy, and then moving up to a Lightning and bigger/better/scarier/more fun things. I think it's a great idea.Linda Lu CRW Diva #73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #15 December 7, 2006 And the nice part about starting early is - even if they don't get hooked, they've been exposed to it, and they're not afraid of it. People who talk terrified of CRW are generally those who've never been exposed to it... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #16 December 7, 2006 QuoteQuotein general CRW doesn't have a strutured training program or a measure to qualify tutors You can pinch mine if you like: http://ozcrw.tripod.com/training.htm There is a CRW tutor rating in Oz. You are correct in that most people just learn from other people. BASE is similar. If you can improve this, feel free to email me and I'll add in your bits. The Egyptians used that same program. *Pinch* I was speaking of the U.S. Sorry I should have specified. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #17 December 7, 2006 QuoteTypically they do have an A license when I get to em. I used to use 20 jumps as my number because for so many years 20 jumps was the A license minimum. I am also a USPA licensed Coach so that's not an issue :-) I'm legal.. I remember when the 20 jumps changed to 25. Cool I didn't know you were a coach. Not to question your credentials or ability just thoughts in my earlier post. QuoteI may be in the minority, but I really don't have a problem doing simple 2 and 3 way stacks - docile stuff, no aggressive rotations etc, with microlines. Its a non-event. What I wouldn't do is what some CRW rotation teams were doing a few years back (not sure if they still are) - putting microlines on their tiny rots canopies to gain more speed! Eek!!! W I guess I could agree there. Do you also explain the differences in what they are learning now and what Quote/Unquote real CRw is? Equipment, techniques, safety procedures and ECt. ? Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #18 December 7, 2006 QuoteQuote I don't know what the guys training the Egyptians did but in general CRW doesn't have a strutured training program or a measure to qualify tutors. the BPA does, maybe we can borrow from them. That would mean USPA getting involved. The LAST thing I want is USPA telling CRW Dogs what they can & can't do, and who can & can't teach. When USPA gets involved it tends to unnecessarily cost people more money with little corresponding value being returned. My experience with younger jumpers and CRW is that they won't go near you as a tutor until they've seen you do lots of CRW and/or have a comfort level with your abilities and judgment. Agreed, but that doesn't mean we can't develop some sort of teaching standard and monitor out own. The reason why advanced coaching works well in other disciplines is because they have standardized what is taught and measured who can become an instructor. Wing suit flyers are a good example of this. USPA is not involved except for one or two BSR which don't really get in the way of anything. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #19 December 7, 2006 Quote I remember when the 20 jumps changed to 25. Cool I didn't know you were a coach. Not to question your credentials or ability just thoughts in my earlier post. I've got an AFF rating too - I can fall stable after I cutaway! (Seen some amusing freefalls from some dogs!) Quote I guess I could agree there. Do you also explain the differences in what they are learning now and what Quote/Unquote real CRw is? Equipment, techniques, safety procedures and ECt. ? As they progress in CRW, if they wish to do so, we do cover more info - i.e what's different in a 4-stack versus a 2.. They see my gear - tail-pocketed canopy hanging out and they've seen me pack it lots - they understand its different. They usually inquire early on about my retract pc and such. And they all get encouraged early on to get Triathalons and Spectres so they can play both ways.. The ones who are serious look for Lightnings... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #20 December 7, 2006 QuoteAnd they all get encouraged early on to get Triathalons and Spectres so they can play both ways.. The ones who are serious look for Lightnings... I'm really glad now that my rigger suggested I consider a Spectre, since now I do have an interest in CRW. Once it's not so freaking cold in PA though. I have no desire to freeze my ass off for that long!! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratman05 0 #21 December 8, 2006 Come to Maytown. Alan has a tri-hybrid that will work perfect (I started with it, as did he). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #22 December 8, 2006 You could always come south for a week or so and enjoy some warm weather....The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #23 December 8, 2006 QuotePeople who talk terrified of CRW are generally those who've never been exposed to it... I think they call them type of people "whuffo's". Whu ffo they hang perfectly good nylon and string together? Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #24 December 8, 2006 Quote Agreed, but that doesn't mean we can't develop some sort of teaching standard and monitor out own. We do have a teaching standard that's encompassed by the CRW Dog Safety Briefing ("Don't die!") and the CRW Dog Prayer ("Please God, don't let me f*ck this up!"). Seriously though, I understand your point, but beginner camps have a fairly standard safety briefing that covers various do's and don'ts and emergency procedures. As for who should be teaching, my personal feeling is that unless you can top dock you shouldn't be teaching. The ability to top dock allows you to control the jump from beginning to end. As for monitoring, that's a problem that I don't know the answer to. Being the laissez-faire kind of person I am, I prefer to keep USPA out of things & I don't think canopy manufacturers want to be involved in policing CRW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #25 December 8, 2006 Chuck already offered to work with me. I'm ok with trying other gear, or using my own Spectre. I do jump at Maytown during the week since I live in Etown. I only jump at Cburg on weekends since I'm a packer there and get paid damn well for it too Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
