Learn to do Head Down

[EricaH 0]

Um, which DZ to you guys jump at? So we can come visit & perhaps do some "heads" down.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[woodpecker 0]

bouncing around right now. In the UK right now so hit a few of them here, but primarily jump paracentrum in Texel, netherlands. Awsome place to jump and I recomend it to everyone. Staff is great and food is awsome.

Fitz will be in South Carolina in a few months looking for a new drop zone and I will be in Georgia from November to March....would love to jump. Then off to ???????????????

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[EricaH 0]

Wow - that's a great travel schedule.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

No matter what you try or how you try it, please please make sure & NOT dive in the direction the plane is flying - IF you do slide around you'll end up up/down jumprun. And chances are your skilz aren't good enough once finding yourself HD to then turn 90 degrees off jump run.

I've been focusing 100% on freeflying the last almost 2 years. Then last month I went out for a number of mid sized RW jumps (8 - 25 people). I know I have loads more to learn on my belly, but that's a different story. The next time I went HD - the improvement was wonderful! It is amazing re-orienting yourself - learning how each body part affects your flight & using that to fly however you want.

One day, I'll have 1500 jumps & then I'll really start to improve.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Years ago, armed with no real suggestions but try it .... exactly how you described ... I did... the after I opened 2 instructors from an AFF jump passed me on either side. Woops.. Wasn’t quite head down.... see what I'm getting at? "

Sure do . And I will concede your point with a proviso.

As some of the replies from people who REALLY want to have a go at HD have indicated ....different strokes for different folks.

We're not all the same .....thankfully.

Some of us can see right through the commercialised way of "training " people for HD. 'Freeflying'. ..bit of a misnomer when you factor in paying for what often amounts to sloppy coaching.

Some of us don't mind if we don't "get it right " the first time...as long as we don't endanger ourselves or others needlessly.

I had a wonderful chat a little while ago with a person from another sporting discipline. He described how skydiving and it's training techniques looked to him.

What attracted him to skydiving was HD and freestyle.
This person was majorly disappointed that he was told he had to wait until he had 200 jumps before he could attempt HD.

On his 10th jump he went HD after talking with me. OK it mightn't have been perfect and yeah he probably backslid a bit . ..BUT ...he did what HE wanted to do in a safe and reasonable manner (he was an exceptional student)

Viewing his training videos it was difficult to tell who was the student and who was the instructor.

An idea formed between us. HD in the AFF course. Why not we thought?
If the instructors were skilled enough this would be no problem. 3way out the door HD on your 1st jump..... transition to flat after 20 seconds...

You'd certainly get current with things quickly. AFF boosted the learning curve when it was first introduced . What's the next quantum leap?

I reckon HD AFF

....give the customer what they want.....that's the whole idea of a business after all . Not just providing them with what YOU want to give them.

There must be enought good freeflyers out there by now capable of such a thing. Often the AFF instuctor has NO skills in this department & as soon as an AFF exit goes unstable the instructors get thrown off.

Students I've mentionewd this to just LOVE the idea.
Stuck in the mud skydivers .....perhaps you can guess how they react.

[hookitt 1]

Head down AFF... already took enough AFF student's on head downs

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This person was majorly disappointed that he was told he had to wait until he had 200 jumps before he could attempt HD.

Who the heck would say such a thing?

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On his 10th jump he went HD after talking with me. OK it mightn't have been perfect and yeah he probably backslid a bit . ..BUT ...he did what HE wanted to do in a safe and reasonable manner (he was an exceptional student)

How do you know it was safe manner?

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Students I've mentionewd this to just LOVE the idea.
Stuck in the mud skydivers .....perhaps you can guess how they react

You don't know me very well

As far as freeflying in AFF? good luck. I'll let a student leave the back to earth but I'm not taking a student on an intentional head down. That's simply dumb. Though I've taken plenty of them after AFF was finished with Mad briefings.

Where are getting the part that I want people not to do something? Providing limited information on the internet as you have been, doesn't increase body awareness. A new skydiver will smile just as big if you have them grab the step on the way out and do 15 flips in a row.

Make sure your rig is freefly friendly. <-- who determines that? I KNOW I can. After that is determined... anyone who wants to know will be given suggestions on how to better their body awareness.

Read this next quote

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Dive forwards out the door in the same direction the aircrafts going.

That's the line of flight. Using the rest of your suggestions is probably going to cause someone to track ... down_the_line_of_flight.

You're quite an eloquent writer. I'll give you that one.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Trae 1]

in rep2 "Who the heck would say such a thing? "

The point is some people out here DO try and hold people back 'cause it would show them up or something I don't know I don't get it either. I wasn't suggesting U do..sorry if my inadequate comm.skills implied otherwise.

in reply to "You don't know me very well "

I don't know you at all . but you seem OK to me
Nothing personal was meant so I'm sorry if you took some form of offence..... I''ll take it as a compliment on the basis that 'you can only be offended by people you respect.'

in rep2 "I'm not taking a student on an intentional head down. That's simply dumb. "
That's simply your inclination & opinion which you are entitled to in a free world.

'Make sure your rig is freefly friendly.' <-- 'who determines that?'

You could try the DZSO I suppose.

"That's the line of flight. Using the rest of your suggestions is probably going to cause someone to track ... down_the_line_of_flight. '

If you get out last and apply the 12 second between exit roole there'll probably be no problem with this ..however ... I didn't suggest anyone TRACK down the line of flight anyway & hey guess ...what U exit a moving aircraft & you're going down the line of flight initially whether you like it or not. Diving that way just improves a head down launch ...like diving INTO a wave rather than belly flopping onto it.

I ONLY SUGGESTED A METHOD OF GOING HEAD DOWN for a short time...for FUN (sheeesh)

If any viewers try this HD introductory technique perhaps you can let us all know how it goes?

As for the HD AFF some anti HD AFF replies sound a bit like some less forward thinking types sounded when AFF and Tandems were first introduced.

Some people just refused to believe AFF would work.

and look what's happened....

Hopefully our sport will continue to grow and be enhanced as time goes by.

psss I've never been called eloquent before ..must be mellowing in my old age.

[hkf 0]

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They run around like spastics because they haven't perfected walking yet.

If you want to fly around like a drunk spastic then go ahead and have fun.

Dude they aren't called spastics anymore, they are called scopies.

[Trae 1]

Got an idea for another thread.....Head down Accelerated Free Fall ....yippee here comes the future ...

This'll go well with head down Tandem ...lots of fun with a lightweight experienced passenger.


Is the sky the limit or just the edge of space?

[EricaH 0]

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If you get out last and apply the 12 second between exit roole there'll probably be no problem with this ..however ... I didn't suggest anyone TRACK down the line of flight anyway & hey guess ...what U exit a moving aircraft & you're going down the line of flight initially whether you like it or not. Diving that way just improves a head down launch

Not to go into a long story - but... there was a man at my dz trying to learn HD this way. He went out last before a tandem (tandem was pulling exceptionally high & thus didn't care bout the long spot) right after me. The tandem instructor told the guy when to exit (giving extra long time after me). This new HD jumper opened at the same level as & at the same time as the 4 way sit fliers that were infront of me! He tracked straight through my airspace & right into theirs. He, the 4 way & me are all lucky it turned out fine. Point being people learing HD track like mad - why encourage it to go up or down line of flight. IMHO, everything should be done to discourage it from happening.

If you are so unaware off your belly that you don't know which direction the plane was flying & can't recognize landmarks 90 degrees off - you shouldn't be doing any ff for more than um 3 seconds at the same time, if you don't have a stable ff speed position, what orientation are you suppose to fly in between bad tracking/HD efforts? belly? great!!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Trae 1]

Please get over it ..... you're not gonna be holding them back no matter what you do.



They asked for the basics ......they got em.

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[ncfitzge 0]

We got the basics and Trae is correct. We would have tried it without the advice, which would have made us even more dangerous. We read all the warnings and we should be fine.

Thanks for the advice again Trae.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[Trae 1]

Just a bit more ...after you manually ensure your legs are in the desired position (wide apart and straight but not rigid) as you straighten your back allow your hands to slide along the outside of your legs and then rest near your hips. After you check the horizon you can gradually spread your arms out in a relaxed fashion.

A few + a few practises on the ground will make this easier .

perhaps you can let us know how it goes ?

[ncfitzge 0]

Will Do.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[hookitt 1]

Practice on the ground by standing straight up let the shoulders hang naturally, spread you legs out pretty far, toes forward. Keep them straight but don't lock them. Strong.. but flexible. Push outward like you're trying to slide off the soles of your shoes.

To know what straight up and down really is, stand with your back against a pole. Then spread the legs, then move away from it.

When you do start putting your arms out. put the entire arm out and not just your forearms.

Face off the line of flight... and know exactly what it is before you go for it.

Good luck, and work on more than just your head. do a bunch of flips and stuff.

Have fun.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[EricaH 0]

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Please get over it ..... you're not gonna be holding them back no matter what you do.

I'm not trying to hold them back. I'm trying to make sure no one messes up & screws w/ someone else's life.

I will never get over trying to teach safety to people - even if I have to keep repeating myself. You shouldn't either.

It's people with lots of experience that don't care enough to point out potential hazards that should be... sorry, can't finish that.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[woodpecker 0]

OK OK, EricaH....I will make out with you!

Seriously though, I would like to thank everyone that has posted usefull information and especially like to thank those with tact, and only concerned with our safetly. Theres a lot involved with HD that I didnt know and know now. Thanks to all and hope to see you all at a drop zone near you. EricaH, you asked previously where I jump, I will let you know as soon as I get to georgia and maybe I can meet you somewhere in the states to fall out of the sky. Thanks again to all.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[Newbie 0]

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The best advice I've heard and used about how to have a go at head down is the following.

Dive forwards out the door in the same direction the aircrafts going.

Why have you described how to let this guy experiment with trying his headdown while he is now perfectly lined up for potentially front and back sliding right up the line of flight?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

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allow me to clarify one more little piece of the puzzle in regards to my previouse reply. We are not in congested airspace where we jump. its usually just you and in no danger to anyone. Lots of free air!
Like i said, as long as we are not endangering people.
I also understand that a coach would be warranted to purfect such a skill, but whats the harm in trying it out a few times before? I appreciate everyone trying to keep us safe...guess i just dont understand the total danger in being alone in the air and trying out something new for a few seconds. If I'm missing something please explain. I definetely dont want to hurt/kill anyone especially me.

you want to jump with someone who is trying HD, so why does it matter if you are in an uncongested area of air space? If you are doing a 2 way, are you not now automatically in a congested area?

Closing speeds - as everyone keeps saying - are much faster than flat flying. You also have another 2 axis to think about.

Even if you are solo'ing and thinking you are perfectly HD but actually sliding up the line of flight at 40 or 50 mph, you must understand how that can be bad right? And i'm not just talking about how it's bad for you, i'm talking about your responsibility to do your bit to make sure you are not endangering anyone else on your load.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

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allow me to clarify one more little piece of the puzzle in regards to my previouse reply. We are not in congested airspace where we jump. its usually just you and in no danger to anyone. Lots of free air!

Is it only you and your mate on the load then?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[goose491 0]

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OK OK, EricaH....I will make out with you!

You need to grow up dude

You are asking for advice in this thread. She was pointing out that you can get someone KILLED with what you are doing and she was expressing a few things you can do to prevent this.

That merrits a humble 'thank you' from you... not this BS, hotshot.


I don't advocate the "you need x jumps before doing yadda yadda" either... but one thing I do advocate is a little respect for your peers and a little respect for safety.

Have fun flopping around "on your head".

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[ncfitzge 0]

Dude, even Hookitt gave up on this. Look, we understand the dangers involved in this activity. I posted this to find the best way to be safe. I have read multiple posts and have even watch instructional video's on it. We know that with HD we will be traveling much faster and if we are not smart about it we will kill ourselves or worse someone else.

We have already talked to the people at the DZ we are heading to. They do not suggest I try it strictly on the number of jumps I have. As you can see, I don't believe in that. They have also said that I am allowed to try what I want to. They will stick us at the end of the load just to be as safe as possible. Now in AFF they did teach us how to turn and I am able to tell which way the aircraft is moving. So if I do back slide or front slide I will not be of the line of flight.

Now I am not planning on getting there and trying HD on my first jump. I am planning on working with my sit fly doing turns on all axis. Towards the end I will mess around with HD and that will not be for around another 20 jumps or so.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all your comments on this and the concern for our safety. If you have more suggestions on how do be more stable, better exit suggestions or any suggestions, please post them. But if you’re just going to say we are going to kill ourselves and everyone around us and to smile when we hit the ground because we will leave a lasting impression, don't bother it has already been said.

Also, just want to say thanks to Hookitt. That is a great suggestion.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[Newbie 0]

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Dude, even Hookitt gave up on this. Look, we understand the dangers involved in this activity. I posted this to find the best way to be safe. I have read multiple posts and have even watch instructional video's on it. We know that with HD we will be traveling much faster and if we are not smart about it we will kill ourselves or worse someone else.

We have already talked to the people at the DZ we are heading to. They do not suggest I try it strictly on the number of jumps I have. As you can see, I don't believe in that. They have also said that I am allowed to try what I want to. They will stick us at the end of the load just to be as safe as possible. Now in AFF they did teach us how to turn and I am able to tell which way the aircraft is moving. So if I do back slide or front slide I will not be of the line of flight.

Now I am not planning on getting there and trying HD on my first jump. I am planning on working with my sit fly doing turns on all axis. Towards the end I will mess around with HD and that will not be for around another 20 jumps or so.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all your comments on this and the concern for our safety. If you have more suggestions on how do be more stable, better exit suggestions or any suggestions, please post them. But if you’re just going to say we are going to kill ourselves and everyone around us and to smile when we hit the ground because we will leave a lasting impression, don't bother it has already been said.

Also, just want to say thanks to Hookitt. That is a great suggestion.

Mate, people just don't want you to hurt a) yourself b) yourself and/or your mate who you are flying with c) anyone else on the load.

I'm not trying to say you don't know what you are doing, people are naturally just concerned for you, your friend and others who will be in the air.

If you are going to give it a try, listen above all to what the CCI and instructors there might tell you, specifically those who are experience ff coach level instructors. If there are none, think about trying this somewhere else, where you can get advice from people who understand free flying. If you are near Sibson, i will gratefully spend time introducing you to the CCI, his brother and other experienced ff'ers with many thousands of jumps more than myself who know the dangers and can offer good guidance. Reading posts here and/or watching instructional videos is not enough - you need a full and proper briefing on what you are going to be doing, and from people that understand what can happen.

If you are ok at the dz, and get a good brief, what i did at first was to have a friend act as a reference point while i tried hd. This way you can a) stay on heading and b) ascertain if you are front/back sliding. They should just fall down the tube and not move. It is not advisable for them to be too close to you, neither is it a good idea for them to be directly opposite to you - if you go hd and face them, tilt onto your back and keep them directly in your line of view/flight, you could end up tracking into them. Keep them at a slight offset angle, so they can act as a reference point, but you won't endanger them by potentially sliding straight into them.

I'm still just learning HD, but i made sure i was FF1 and could be decent head up and comfortable in not corking before i even began to get into hd and that was after i had 200 jumps.

Make sure you rig is super tight too, have someone look at it before hand.

My post above is just my thoughts on this situation, doesn't mean i think it's a good idea. Again, i would agree with what has been said and speak to a coach at this dz who will take you up and show you how to do this properly - it will be a much more effective learning tool, and above all, be safer.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[hookitt 1]

You're welcome. I didn't give up though. I said what I meant about giving advice over the internet to those unarmed with time in the air. If I were you, heck I'd go for it. You know now about the flight, it’s not the direction to face for any length of time... so it's all good. Leave last and leave a bunch of extra time before you get out. It will give you a bigger area to travel around when you flounder about :)

Also, you'd be amazed at how far a person can travel when they think they are head down, and they are not, then hold it for much of a skydive.

I recommend loads of experimenting. If you practice that stuff on the ground, it will give you a much better reference so practice. Stand around as much as you can doing that.

Also, seriously do LOTS of other stuff too. Flips spins.. whatever. The more you can be in control when you're out of control, the better. Hope that little tidbit makes sense.

I've been in near misses, from other groups, watched enough premature deployments from using gear that people thought were secure so ... be sure. Go have a blast and don't die

edit: mass amounts of spelling errors

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ncfitzge 0]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, Target Skysports put such a bad taste in my mouth, I don't think I will jump in England anymore. They would refuse to back the gear I rented from, just on the fact I am an American. I heard the same about Sibson. But thank you for the offer.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[woodpecker 0]

This is funny Shit. I lighten the thread up a little and give some one loads of respect and I get static. Oh well, its expected and I can take it as much as I can dish it out. I wasnt intending to disrespect anyone and I do respect my peers. Especially when it comes to skydiving and being safe, thus the reason for this thread. Fitz and I want to try something new and want to do it correctly. Thats why we are asking for advice and taking it all in to try a new disaline correctly and as safe as we can. If a coach is the way to go, then a coach we will get. As far as me needing to grow up, you need to chill out. This is a chat forum, we are not at the DZ, talking trash and just doing what we like. We are asking the experience how to go about something. Damn, isnt skydiving supposed to be fun after all? Thats why I do it and just hanging out at the DZ with other jumpers having a good time completes the experience. Lets all try to remember this and thanks again to everyone for the helpfull advice and to EricaH for again wanting us to be safe.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?