Andrewnewell 0 #1 March 30, 2004 Hello to all you Brit freeflyers out there. do you think it's time for the three monkeys at the BPA to start taking there hands away from their eyes/ears/mouths in reguards to freeflying. I'd really like to hear your opinions about the current ff1/ff2 system. Is it a good licencing system that allows people of similar skill levels to jump together safely? Or is it a poorly thought out and badly designed system that reduces safety by allowing persons with low experience to make group jumps,etc? Any suggestions on a better way of controlling freeflying in the UK? looking forward to fedykin's comments,... bring it on Robbo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #2 March 30, 2004 call me an ignorant American if you wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmcvey 0 #3 March 30, 2004 I feel the FF grades are reasonable but should maybe be more safety orientated to start with. You can get FF1 by showing you can slide around in a sit moderately in control (i did! ) ..but need no knowledge of exit separation, exit orders, breakoff heights/direction, gear safety etc.. Maybe if there was a 'freefly coach' rating introduced and the requirements for the two FF grades increased.. the whole thing could be made more credible... As it stands i think CCIs dish out the grades..they usually werent on the dive, and the person recommending the grade is probably as mate. Tricky one.... dont want more rules, but the current ones need modifying slightly..... Dont want to waffle too much but my syllabus would be like this...... FF1 Shows good understanding of : Gear, Exit Orders, Exit separation, Working away from line of flight, breakoff separation. Show good sit exit, both facing towards and away from tail of aircraft. Fly relative to coach, both vertically and horizontally. (follow the leader style) Cartwheel 360 both ways in Sit/Stand. Front loop/back loop back into Sit. Side slides. Foot dock (touch toes) Hand dock (coaches foot/hand) Then.... FF2 All of the above and completed at least one headup 2 way with someone other than the coach. Good solo exit facing plane, exit facing ground. Good 2way gripped exit as above. Cartwheel from sit to headdown and back 360s HD Fly within docking distance of coach, and be able to fly relative both vertically and horizontally. Both one handed and two handed docks. Basic side movement/carve. Cha'think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #4 March 31, 2004 The FF system is the British freefly rating system. Its my personal view that the FF system in place in the UK is out of date, it is not comprehensive and leeds to people with a small amounts of experience getting involved in jumps that require a much higher level of understanding. IE to obtain your FF1 {licence to fly head up with as many people as you want}... Show a sit exit, fast fall,slow fall, forward movement,turn in place, and a transition. FF2 requires a much higher level of skill?{ all of the above but doing it on your head}!!??? Who said a little information is a dangerous thing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #5 March 31, 2004 Yeah, that would be more like the thing i'd have in mind. I would certainly make it more modular. IE FF1,2,3,4,ect. I also think that there is also room for having to cover tracking. how to track in groups.separation and flying in steep angles{ Atmonauti}. And what is the deal with the BPA not introducing a freefly coach rating? would it be an idear to get certain well established coaches { Alaska Jon, Omar, Max Cohn, Babylon....} to vet current brit freeflyers who feel their ready to coach. This would certainly take a bit of pride swallowing from certain "established coaches" in the country, But I think it would be worth it in the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gus 1 #6 March 31, 2004 Bloody hell, haven't we got enough stupid bits of paper and stickers in logbooks already? There's a better solution: If you're on a jump that you're not comfortable with (group getting bigger and bigger, too many inexperienced people etc) then take yourself off. If you think there's someone in a group that shouldn't be then speak to them. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #7 March 31, 2004 Yeah see where your comin from bro. It's just that just speakin to these people is in my opinion a short term solution to a long term problem. Yeah, no one likes going through the hassle of getting poxy stickers and ticks in boxes. so what do we do? do we stick with the current system but make the criteria to get FF1/2 more comprehensive and drawn out? I think if we did that it would just put people off starting freeflying as it would take a longer time to obtain the FF quals. Or do we make the system more modular and have a national {BPA approved} system of coaching that requires coaches to cover from the very basic stuff { ground briefs, exit order ect} to the more in depth stuff at the "FF2" end of the scale? As for the " if I dont feel comfortable on the dive sketch", thats all well and good for the more conscientious flyers in the dicipline, but what about the individuals who use the term "free"flight as as excuse to do what ever they want. Ok, I'm not suggesting the SKY POLICE, but freeflying in the UK needs to be controlled in a better way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #8 March 31, 2004 My opinion, for what its worth from a freeflying POP....who is grandfathered in by virtue of his existing "do anything you want" D licence... Its about time people took responsibility for their own safety, and stop relying on stickers, licenses etc. A license doesn't make you safe, only the jumpers themselves can control safety on a jump. Less regulation, and more education and acceptance of responsibility is what I say. People know who the Zoomie Corky kids are, and they should be realistic about their own abilities to avoid being in dangerous situations. As Gus rightly said, speak to each other folks, self regulate, or we will end up with more unworkable rules. This all works fine in the US without stickers and such like, I wonder why we insist on it over here?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmcvey 0 #9 March 31, 2004 I think the grading system is more to do with education and self-achievement than "regulating" jumpers to what they can and cant do... It gives newer jumpers something to aim for and feel like they have earnt something, while learning some funky skills... I think the grading system could be better though... but on the other hand at present its a good middle ground for the 'anarchy rules' folk and those who cant think for themselves and need some guidance to what they shouldnt be doing, for the sake of everyone else. But none of it is mandatory..... there not making anyone do the grades. oh the repression of the bpa!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TattooedMoFo 0 #10 March 31, 2004 [reply Gear, Exit Orders, Exit separation, Working away from line of flight, breakoff separation. That's what we have A, B, C, D licenses for!!! each dropzone has their rules for exit orders, but if you are are given proper briefing when getting your A-D licenses you understand how all of it works. Exit Seperations aren't specific, who nows whatthe uppers will be doing when you get out, again B + C licenses you should be taught here. FF1 and FF2 stickers are not licenses saying you have free license to do what you what, they are a guide to show others you know the basics, the rest is up to you, what groups you jump in , who you jump with etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #3 March 30, 2004 I feel the FF grades are reasonable but should maybe be more safety orientated to start with. You can get FF1 by showing you can slide around in a sit moderately in control (i did! ) ..but need no knowledge of exit separation, exit orders, breakoff heights/direction, gear safety etc.. Maybe if there was a 'freefly coach' rating introduced and the requirements for the two FF grades increased.. the whole thing could be made more credible... As it stands i think CCIs dish out the grades..they usually werent on the dive, and the person recommending the grade is probably as mate. Tricky one.... dont want more rules, but the current ones need modifying slightly..... Dont want to waffle too much but my syllabus would be like this...... FF1 Shows good understanding of : Gear, Exit Orders, Exit separation, Working away from line of flight, breakoff separation. Show good sit exit, both facing towards and away from tail of aircraft. Fly relative to coach, both vertically and horizontally. (follow the leader style) Cartwheel 360 both ways in Sit/Stand. Front loop/back loop back into Sit. Side slides. Foot dock (touch toes) Hand dock (coaches foot/hand) Then.... FF2 All of the above and completed at least one headup 2 way with someone other than the coach. Good solo exit facing plane, exit facing ground. Good 2way gripped exit as above. Cartwheel from sit to headdown and back 360s HD Fly within docking distance of coach, and be able to fly relative both vertically and horizontally. Both one handed and two handed docks. Basic side movement/carve. Cha'think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #4 March 31, 2004 The FF system is the British freefly rating system. Its my personal view that the FF system in place in the UK is out of date, it is not comprehensive and leeds to people with a small amounts of experience getting involved in jumps that require a much higher level of understanding. IE to obtain your FF1 {licence to fly head up with as many people as you want}... Show a sit exit, fast fall,slow fall, forward movement,turn in place, and a transition. FF2 requires a much higher level of skill?{ all of the above but doing it on your head}!!??? Who said a little information is a dangerous thing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #5 March 31, 2004 Yeah, that would be more like the thing i'd have in mind. I would certainly make it more modular. IE FF1,2,3,4,ect. I also think that there is also room for having to cover tracking. how to track in groups.separation and flying in steep angles{ Atmonauti}. And what is the deal with the BPA not introducing a freefly coach rating? would it be an idear to get certain well established coaches { Alaska Jon, Omar, Max Cohn, Babylon....} to vet current brit freeflyers who feel their ready to coach. This would certainly take a bit of pride swallowing from certain "established coaches" in the country, But I think it would be worth it in the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #6 March 31, 2004 Bloody hell, haven't we got enough stupid bits of paper and stickers in logbooks already? There's a better solution: If you're on a jump that you're not comfortable with (group getting bigger and bigger, too many inexperienced people etc) then take yourself off. If you think there's someone in a group that shouldn't be then speak to them. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #7 March 31, 2004 Yeah see where your comin from bro. It's just that just speakin to these people is in my opinion a short term solution to a long term problem. Yeah, no one likes going through the hassle of getting poxy stickers and ticks in boxes. so what do we do? do we stick with the current system but make the criteria to get FF1/2 more comprehensive and drawn out? I think if we did that it would just put people off starting freeflying as it would take a longer time to obtain the FF quals. Or do we make the system more modular and have a national {BPA approved} system of coaching that requires coaches to cover from the very basic stuff { ground briefs, exit order ect} to the more in depth stuff at the "FF2" end of the scale? As for the " if I dont feel comfortable on the dive sketch", thats all well and good for the more conscientious flyers in the dicipline, but what about the individuals who use the term "free"flight as as excuse to do what ever they want. Ok, I'm not suggesting the SKY POLICE, but freeflying in the UK needs to be controlled in a better way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 March 31, 2004 My opinion, for what its worth from a freeflying POP....who is grandfathered in by virtue of his existing "do anything you want" D licence... Its about time people took responsibility for their own safety, and stop relying on stickers, licenses etc. A license doesn't make you safe, only the jumpers themselves can control safety on a jump. Less regulation, and more education and acceptance of responsibility is what I say. People know who the Zoomie Corky kids are, and they should be realistic about their own abilities to avoid being in dangerous situations. As Gus rightly said, speak to each other folks, self regulate, or we will end up with more unworkable rules. This all works fine in the US without stickers and such like, I wonder why we insist on it over here?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #9 March 31, 2004 I think the grading system is more to do with education and self-achievement than "regulating" jumpers to what they can and cant do... It gives newer jumpers something to aim for and feel like they have earnt something, while learning some funky skills... I think the grading system could be better though... but on the other hand at present its a good middle ground for the 'anarchy rules' folk and those who cant think for themselves and need some guidance to what they shouldnt be doing, for the sake of everyone else. But none of it is mandatory..... there not making anyone do the grades. oh the repression of the bpa!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TattooedMoFo 0 #10 March 31, 2004 [reply Gear, Exit Orders, Exit separation, Working away from line of flight, breakoff separation. That's what we have A, B, C, D licenses for!!! each dropzone has their rules for exit orders, but if you are are given proper briefing when getting your A-D licenses you understand how all of it works. Exit Seperations aren't specific, who nows whatthe uppers will be doing when you get out, again B + C licenses you should be taught here. FF1 and FF2 stickers are not licenses saying you have free license to do what you what, they are a guide to show others you know the basics, the rest is up to you, what groups you jump in , who you jump with etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #11 April 2, 2004 andy basically waved a red flag at me and hoped that i would charge at it, i cant do that anymore-inapropriate given what i do now(im in charge andy) within freeflying the only licence that really means anything is the AD licence, though it could be expanded somewhat to focus on head up etc... The FF1 and 2 arent trully objective standards in term of flying ability, there somewhat like a FS1 in that sense, too reliant upon other variable eg.. other flyers. A better way of stating what andy meant was 'UK is horendous for freeflying' and most would probably agree. Thats not to say some people are born flying OK and some arent but the general attitude is non progressive. People arent geniunely interested in learning how to freefly, dont listen to anyone, and those that are telling everyone what to do and not to do, probably shouldnt be. This isnt an easy thing to remedy, it seems almost cultural. Just avoid 99% of the UK types and do your own thing. Sorry i didnt bite Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #12 April 4, 2004 QuoteA better way of stating what andy meant was 'UK is horendous for freeflying' and most would probably agree. Thats not to say some people are born flying OK and some arent but the general attitude is non progressive. People arent geniunely interested in learning how to freefly, dont listen to anyone, and those that are telling everyone what to do and not to do, probably shouldnt be. This isnt an easy thing to remedy, it seems almost cultural. Just avoid 99% of the UK types and do your own thing. You call that not biting?? I disagree with what you posted. I didn't learn to skydive in the UK, I've jumped elsewhere (California, Florida, Arizona, Sweden, Holland, Germany and South Africa) and I don't think it is fair to say that freeflyers in the UK aren't genuinely interested in improving their skills. Sure the weather and jump ticket prices here aren't favourable (which is why we jump abroad so much) but the freefly scene in the UK is not that bad. You have the Euphoria guys from Nethers, Floydy and Fordy at Weston, Dan Parker, Rob Simpson and Co. at Hib, Giles Fabris and the Meacocks at Sibson, Steve Newman at Langar - there are plenty of people with a genuine interest who want to help people to learn to fly better. And there are plenty of local freeflyers with a genuine interest in wanting to learn to fly better. You've got a pretty blunt abrasive way of trying to make your point - I think you are wrong about the UK freefly scene (FWIW I've jumped at 6 local dropzones so far). Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BethUK 0 #13 April 5, 2004 Ouch that seems kinda harsh! Well thats encouraged me to start learning to freefly over here.....NOT I do agree that there should be a FF coach rating of some description, but I dont really think your comments about nobody wanting to progress are very fair.... Beth ------------------------------------------------------------ "This isn't flying...it's falling with style!" Buzz Lightyear - Toystory 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #14 April 6, 2004 Dam you fedykin, I thought you were gonna bite... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #15 April 6, 2004 Ok, so the general consensus is that the UK needs less stickers/gold stars and all that good stuff. More focus on coaching and education. So what about a freefly coach "rating". What would be the criteria to gain this "rating"? Also, who would assess the people who would attempt to gain this qualification? Any suggestions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TattooedMoFo 0 #16 April 6, 2004 Quote within freeflying the only licence that really means anything is the AD licence, though it could be expanded somewhat to focus on head up etc... Sorry but the AD license means even less than the FF1 FF2 sticker. a money making scheme inveted by Olav to prove to others that you can turn points while falling down next a ball, not much of a license is it?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #17 April 6, 2004 I disagree that the AD test means less than the FF stickers. you need to have developed a much higher degree of skill to obtain an AD licence than you would to get a FF sticker! To have obtained a AD licence means that you have a higher degree of understanding for sure. Ok the tests are expensive, so what. your not paying Olav for a ball test as such but paying a qualified person to go up and assess your skill level and to keep the test fair and safe. OK it isn't much of a "licence" because it enables you to do what? jump with a ball? No it is a qualification that shows what specific skill level you are. To say that the AD licence means practically nothing is a bit silly, as most of the best flyers today hold one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #18 April 6, 2004 From my 'junior freeflying' perspective...Im shocked to read some of the issues here. I am currently working towards my FF1....and I can say hand on heart right from the start alot of time was spent on the mechanics of freeflying, the exit orders and separation ( and the reasons in detail for them), proximity awareness, equipment and other safety issues....and that was right from the start, and alot before I eve stepped out for my 1st coached FF jump. It has fostered a mindset within me that not only helped me understand and get comfortable with what Im doing, but also the importance of not overstepping my abilities ....being mindful of the consequences and what I should do if said situation happens/presents itself What am I getting at ? Well ...as already said....my Coach teaches this mindset to everyone and still follows the the BPA guidelines for FF1.....perhaps other FF coaches should be looking a bit more closely at what else they teach their students other than just the flying mechanics.....if they start this from your first 'intentional ' freeflys.....it instills a mindset in a reasonable person....that negates the need for the nit picking beaurocracy of an expanded FF qualification syllabus. Even when I get my FF1...I have no intention of doing anything other than solo and 2 way Freeflys, until I identify a time where I ( and the other people I jump with) think its time to step out in a group using skills I have been taught and feel confident with........because thats the mindset that has been instilled in me from before my first FF jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #19 April 7, 2004 as andy said, an AD licence involves a much greater level of ability than an FF whatever, it isnt an olav money making scheme, as he really doesnt have a great deal to do with it anymore(its stefania more or less running things by my understanding). Flying qualifications like educational qualifications tend to be signals of ability. If you go to a new dz anywhere in the world and flash a FF sticker you'll probably be laughed at, while an AD licence is a highly respected standard(noting that A is just the beginning). To be rather blunt about it, there arent any world class freeflyers in the UK(chris lynch bases himself in the US mainly). The rest are more or less amateur operations of enthusiasts. Euphoria, andy newell! I taught him everything he knows. People are not interesting in learning how to freefly in the UK, they are interested in doing it. There is a very serious distinction there. How many zoo chaos dives with no clear objectives have i seen organised in the UK, most of them. Ive not seen once 2 freeflyers doing a drill dive( example..360 dock, cartwheel dock repeat). Its just go out, silly exit, act crazy, pull, gob off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #20 April 7, 2004 The thing about Piers teaching me everything I know is certainly true. I shall allways be indetted to him for showing me the road to enlightenment through freeflying and gobbing off on this site. Hail master Fedykin!{ cheers for that} Further more to my last, the AD tests are probably the only non biased tests you can do within the sport. The ball does not lie, cheat, give a s@%t who you are, it just shows how much control the student/ competetor has in the air. This really does make it { in my opinion } the only licence worth having in reguards to freeflight. Im just chinstrapped that we can't jump the ball in the UK!!!! ***"Remember it's like a finger pointing to the moon.DON'T concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #21 April 7, 2004 People are not interesting in learning how to freefly in the UK, they are interested in doing it. There is a very serious distinction there. How many zoo chaos dives with no clear objectives have i seen organised in the UK, most of them. Ive not seen once 2 freeflyers doing a drill dive( example..360 dock, cartwheel dock repeat). Its just go out, silly exit, act crazy, pull, gob off. I dont think thats true or particularly fair....alot of people I have seen do this...because they want to...because they are having fun, it does not always mean its because they dont have the skills to do a 'programmed' dive.........and from my viewpoint...there are lots of peeps who want to 'learn' how to freefly because they want to know how to fly their body as opposed to fall in an already dictated fashion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyeuphoria 0 #22 April 9, 2004 Andy is only trying to wake everyone up, some great comments have come out on this topic, harsh but true, structure, up to date coaching methods, a whatchfull eye, patience and overall SAFETY is what is required here, stickers or BPA rules will not prove this. Common sense and good up to date coaching and leadership is what is required here. Which is why Euphoria recently went to the USA for a coaching camp with Max Cohn structured on what do u think? Yes new up to date coaching methods as Andy im sure will back me up on ( he was there too) . So listen to some wise words lets not police but educate our discipline more and make coaching safer and more progresive in the UK. Through knowledge and most of all smilling doing it not bitching about it. Laterz Grant a.k.a "The Wookster" Euphoria freefly http://www.freeflyeuphoria.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #23 April 17, 2004 that is just so diplomatic you should put that on the back of a comercial for your guys tow the line Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #24 April 19, 2004 Woh woh, wo! Whats that all about bro?Hey man why dont you get your self to Nethers and feel the love buddy. Thats right bro, come in from the cold! *** you should put that on the back of a comercial for you guys tow the line*** We allready got it on pack lunch boxes and pencil cases, way ahead of you bro. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinDoctor 0 #25 April 23, 2004 QuoteOk, so the general consensus is that the UK needs less stickers/gold stars and all that good stuff. More focus on coaching and education. So what about a freefly coach "rating". What would be the criteria to gain this "rating"? Also, who would assess the people who would attempt to gain this qualification? I was thinking of this post on the way to work this morning - and felt i had to chip in. IMO - you badly contradict yourself here. Yes - more coaching and education, but in my opinion that IS what FF1 and FF2 are about: Coaching and education. It's not just about stickers. (Although it is nice to feel that you have achieved something too) It's about showing a nominated coach that you have achieved BASIC competance and awareness, NOT that you can do a 20 way headdown. As for coaching rating - I think that's a good thing too. There is a BPA FS rating that you can gain, so why not an equivalent FF rating. It's not just about "Yeah - you can do 4 way, so here's your rating..." You have to have sat a 'Methods of Instruction' lecture, show competence in the discipline, minimum 2 years in the sport, 300 jumps and a CCI nomination. Although - that means you get another card (read sticker / gold star) to carry around with you What, in your opinion, do you think the FF1 and FF2 are for then - if not to show that the individual has received coaching and education?----------------------- Connextion: British 8 Way Team www.bodyflight.co.uk ----------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
