Freefly vs. Idea of Freefly

[WrongWay 0]

Okay, I'm having difficulty figuring out just how I'm going to say this, so if this post is confusing, please stick with me here.

Traditionally, the idea of freefly and human flight in general has been to fly any position, any axis, any time. In theory, one should be able to get out of the plane and forget up and down, left and right. They should just feel the air and be able to fly around others without thinking about it, just flying every surface, going over, under, and around at will.

However, it seems that now freefly has changed in such a way that we learn individual postions, as opposed to the "fly your body" theory. First we learn sit, then stand, then head down, and back+belly combinations between there somewhere. By doing this, aren't we eliminating the idea of total body piloting? I mean sure, someone can sit and fly on their head, but to fly under and onto the other side of another, they don't just use these postions, they fly onto their back, then up into a different postion. What I'm saying is, that transition, odds are it will happen so quickly that they won't think about it, and they'll just think "go there" and their body does what they want it to. Shouldn't all freefly be like that, or are we now limiting ourselves to certain particular orientations?

Here's my point. By learning/teaching individual body positions such as sit, head down, etc., aren't we killing the idea of freefly, which is just get out of the plane and fly whatever position the wind can give you, and not limiting yourself to any orientation?

I hope you guys are getting my point, cuz reading through this, I'm confusing the hell out of myself...

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[cutaway1 3]

I get your point and I agree. Especially if you consider that belly flying is just another restricted body position and could be considered just another facet of freeflying which should encompass all possible orientations of the body pilot in flight.
Aloha,
Tim

SCR-21

[gus 1]

Jason, I think what you're talking about is the ultimate goal for freeflyers. We strive to learn to fly as many body positions as we can precisely so we can combine them and truely fly our bodies without conciously thinging about 'head up' or 'head down' or whatever. But it's difficult! So we do it in steps. Look at people like Olav and Omar who really are free flying, it takes time.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[goose491 0]

I think I caught your drift.

Well, all I can think to say is that an airplane is shaped a certain way for a reason. Belly-to-earh, sit and head-down are just standards. Good, aerodynamic geometric shapes for flight. Nobody stays in "the perfect sit" because the perfect sit would have you falling straight down... not much fun if you wanna fly around.

A friend of mine once said that headdown lends itself most to the concept and dream of human flight. Think about it, when one pictures him/herself flying, it's usually in the horizontal, superman, style... well, the relative wind is different when falling, so headdown will get you parallel to it.. you are streamlined and your flight controls most resemble those of a real airplane at this point.

The "Idea" of freeflight was to help eliminate the concept that all we do as skydivers is "fall". It's not so much about different body positions... more about maneuverability. The body positions are what have been developped to best "Fly around" relative to one another.


You're right... it IS hard to word. Hope I'm clear enough.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[skynole 0]

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A friend of mine once said that headdown lends itself most to the concept and dream of human flight. Think about it, when one pictures him/herself flying, it's usually in the horizontal, superman, style... well, the relative wind is different when falling, so headdown will get you parallel to it.. you are streamlined and your flight controls most resemble those of a real airplane at this point.

Interesting point...never thought about it quite like that. Makes sense considering headdown is one of the most powerful flying orientations.

[stuffit 0]

Man, I am glad I dont live in Ohio. You got way too much time on your hands.

[Brains 2]

Jason,
If you watch some of the video's from nationals, and other comps., Your idea of freeflying is exactly what they are doing. I am thinking about Anomoly's video, they flew in all manners and positions in a matter of seconds, ozonejunkie's vid. triple DOCKED cartwheels?? You have to be able to fly your body in all positions to accomplish that. Your idea of freefly is real, it is just a matter of putting it all together and making it look/feel fluid. Just my .02

Jeff

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[rehmwa 2]

So then true freeflying might have a martial arts parallel to Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee thought that traditional styles were too restrictive, e.g., kicks and blows only approach from up/down/left/right, but in reality should be able to come from all 360 degrees - other examples - he developed this as meaning simply 'do what works').

But, you gotta learn from some baseline.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[WrongWay 0]

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Jason, I think what you're talking about is the ultimate goal for freeflyers. We strive to learn to fly as many body positions as we can precisely so we can combine them and truely fly our bodies without conciously thinging about 'head up' or 'head down' or whatever. But it's difficult! So we do it in steps. Look at people like Olav and Omar who really are free flying, it takes time.

Gus

There ya go, that's the key right there. Right on bro.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[78RATS 0]

Read "Total Body Compass" in this month's Skydidving magazine. Excellent Article explaining how to do exactly what your describing.

By Jon of Wicky Licky (Wicked Liquid)

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[WrongWay 0]

I would if I got Skydiving magazine. Anybody know where I can find it online or someone who can scan it for me????

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[lazyfrog 0]

you're not talking anbout freeflying, you're talking about FLYING FREE

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Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[The111 1]

I've thought about this a lot. Unfortunately, it's not possible to fly in EVERY position imaginable, or at least to fall straight in those positions. The position I'm sitting in right now at my desk for example, even if I could make it stable it would have a huge slide in some direction I'm sure.

But I do agree with you which is why I spent 50+ jumps learning sit on my OWN before getting a coach, I liked being creative and not knowing exactly what I was "supposed" to do, which btw is just what the experienced flyers have determined to be most efficient. But I value empirical learning above all else even if it costs me more. I'm doing the same thing now with HD. Obviously if you want to try stuff like this on your own you still have to understand basic safety things about freefall drift such as not holding an unstable out of control position for too long, and keeping track of the jumprun line in freefall to control your heading and drift.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[WrongWay 0]

Yo I checked out that article at a friends place this weekend (the ice boogie ) and it was a really good article!! It is indeed true, there is no such thing as an unstable position if you can properly feel the air and fly your body accordingly. True, 90% of what you do will induce movement, but the trick is being able to use every surface we have to position our bodies and move any way we choose, while remaining smooth and stable and keeping it in fluid motion. Don't you agree?

(Holy fuck I sound like a college professor....prolly cuz I'm in class right now )

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[LouDiamond 1]

My take on this is that you are talking about 2 things here. You are actually describing what is known as Freestyle. Freestyle hits every orientation imaginable(Omar has mastered this and has the medals to prove it). Most FFers never even consider side flying or any other orientation other than sit,stand, HD or back flying. The other reason people start with sit and progress from there is that it all boils down to a sound foundation. In order to progress safely to other orientations one must be able to control their fall rate and have a common position to go back to that doesn't lend itself to corking. You must first crawl, walk and then run, then you can tie them all together.

I tend to disagree that HD is the closest thing to flying and that it is parallel to the wind. HD is falling down perpendicular to the wind, that is why we are affected by drift. Flying is moving horizontally across the ground, like an Aircraft or a Bird and Birdman flight is the closest thing to that to date.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VivaHeadDown 0]

When you first started FFing, were you anywhere near the people on your dive. No. Nobody is. That's because you can't fly any surface, anytime. You have to learn the surfaces, the transitions, the different ways of combining it all together. In the wind tunnel, we teach not to just do something, because people can't just do something and get the desired outcome. In the tunnel, you hit a wall, hard. In the air, you end up away from others. If, however, you have an understanding in your head, and have developed the proper muscle memory, then it appears like you are just doing something yet you are really flying these maneuvers.

Remember, it's FreeFlying, not FreeFlailing, and there's nothing safe about a zoo-way.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[WrongWay 0]

In a way I agree with you, and in a way I don't. I agree that to fly these body positions, they must be taught, as well as the transitions and all that good stuff. However, I think you're missing the point of the post. What I'm getting at is this: Even though it is required to learn all the different positions, transitions, methods of movement, etc. to be safe (and I agree with your zoo dive idea as well....), the idea of freefly is to not think of these positions as individuals (ie. "I am head down", or "I am sitting now"), but to flow freely between these positions without focusing on what orientation you are. Unfortunately, IMHO, teaching individual positions separately (innocently) separates the freefly positions inside the flyers mind, and therefore limits the flyers thought process to those certain orientations.

For instance, there are guys who can sit like a badass but can't fly on their head. These guys are limited to the sit, one specific freefly orientation. Then there are the guys who can only fly on their head, but can't fly upright. Once again, stuck to one orientation. Now, let's look at a guy who can fly on his belly, feet. head, and back. Most people would say he's a well-rounded freeflyer, right? Well then, in that case, what about the other body surfaces he could fly? How does it look during his transitions? What about when he does an eagle, the surfaces BETWEEN head and back, back and feet, feet and belly, belly and head???

My point is, there's a lot more to freefly than flying on your head or in a sit. It's one fluid, beautiful motion, using every body surface we have, and in my most humble opinion, teaching individual positions, while a good way to promote safety (and safety rocks), make us forget about the other surfaces we have.

Just my $.99 Super Value Meal.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[VivaHeadDown 0]

So then how do we teach it?


edit: no personal attacks.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[JJohnson 0]

You have no clue....I just moved to NW Ohio from the Chicago area.....now I'm trying to plan my jailbreak out of here before I get assimilated.

In some of these little towns you gotta order a pizza three days in advance. They don't know what an Italian Beef is either.

My current theme song is "Sweet Home Chicago"

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[WrongWay 0]

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So then how do we teach it?

Hell if I know, hahaha!!!

Yo, I saw the edit for personal attacks, WTF??

Edited to add: I'm assuming because there was a personal attack (I didn't see it before skymama got to it, but thanks mama), that someone somehow took this post the wrong way (no pun intended ). I am NOT saying that freefly coaches all over the world don't know what they're doing, cuz that'd be f*cked up to say the least, nor am I saying "I have the solution!!", cuz shit, I don't know of a way to teach fluid freefly (or even learn it!!), and I wish somebody out there could find a way. That's all I'm saying, not putting anyone down, not lifting anyone up, and it sucks to see a good discussion thread degrade into personal attacks.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[VivaHeadDown 0]

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I saw why she took it out. One of my peeves is everyone adding their two cents, or IMHO. Those things show up a lot in your posts, so I made a sarcastic comment about it. No harm intended, I just use sarcasm when I'm annoyed. Usually I don't here, but it slipped.

I understand your post, but I do not believe you can teach the ideal. Each part you teach someone is like giving them a lego piece. It's up to them to build the final product(s) using their pieces. It's that method that allows people to be creative rather than follow fluid routines they've learned.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

I understand your post, but I do not believe you can teach the ideal. Each part you teach someone is like giving them a lego piece. It's up to them to build the final product(s) using their pieces. It's that method that allows people to be creative rather than follow fluid routines they've learned.

Well said.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[skyjuggler 0]

Check out Martin and Nils. They are so bloody good. The footage is from the World Championships in France this year and is their free routine for Freestyle.

http://www.mondial03.com/modules.php?name=Videos

Then Check out FREESTYLE Male Denmark round N°1

I think freefly is every position, every trajectory, every speed. Its just that certain positions are flown a majority of the time. There are good flyers competing and there are definately good flyers following their own ideas and concepts.
As for teaching this, I believe basics, concepts and ideas can be conveyed. As mentioned above, I also believe that the building blocks can be learnt, what you do with them afterwards is up to the individual.
I think basics are very important, as are different jumping philosophies. These are skills that can be taught, and by receiving coaching from different people, different skills / styles can be aquired.
After that it is up to the individual to travel, learn and follow the aspect of the sport they enjoy the most.

For example I would love to jump with Phillippe Vallaud, or Marco Mana. There are flyers tearing it up with really different ideas, and I believe the diversity of freefly is its strength. Thats why freefly is so fun for me. There is always something to persue and check out, because if you can't do what someone else can, how can you possibly have mastered everything. Freefly means so much to so many people, it is impossible to bottle. Hence free I guess.
The reason I posted, was that I watched the video again recently and then read the thread and thought it appropiate.
Martin and Nils are amazing in the sky. Nils' moves are so fast and precise, whilst the filming is so powerful and acurate. When Martin films, he is moving where he wants to be and when he wants to be there. The combination is incredible. Well in my opinion anyways!

• Quote

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

I know I'm behind here, but I've had a busy week updating sites, etc..
anyway,
I've been trying to understand "Freeflying" myself, and I'll tell you, it's not what I thought it was for sure. I think the idea is right, but in practice it goes out the window.
I've spent hours drilling coaches on their ideas and concepts and what I've come to understand is that they do "want" to free fly (so to speak) but refrain for safety sake. For instance this "corking" word I hear so often, this is a problem with free flying in groups, and basically they would free fly, meaning transition in many ways and fly with the wind, but then no one knows what anyone else is doing and therefore presents another element of danger. This is why the Freeflying I hear so much about it strictly Vertical. The believers that Freeflying is Vertical also believe that what you and I are talking about is Freestyle.
This issue always puzzles me because in the tunnel we have always learned how to fly with people, match fall rates, etc..so when I jump with other people, we do freefly, about 10 feet apart never entering eachother's space, all transitions and match speed no problem, yes some standing, and some sitting, etc.. I haven't had cause to worry because I trust the people I'm flying with. But without LOTS of time flying with someone it's hard to PREDICT their movements, rendering group freeflying pretty unsafe.
I think the curriculum tends to be good, although I'm a believer in sit flying over belly to earth, that's always my recovery position in freefall. I've also noticed that people "freefly" in my definition more when they jump solo, I suppose that's the safety issue there, no one else to worry about what they are doing.

Perhaps I just rambled, but I get what you mean, I think it's sad to see people stuck on their heads, but hey if that's the way they can do it safely then so be it!!

I had this realization just a few days ago really and promptly changed my profile from Freefly to Freestyle as it more accurately describes my skydiving style.

[freakydiver 0]

No - there are reasons certain good and bad flying positions have developed. As "freefly" has progressed over the past ten years, people have figured out what basic positions allow for the best maneuverability. It's just like how 4 and 8 way have progressed and found other ways to turn points quicker based on certain skills. Just because you learn certain foundational skills for sit, stand, and headdown, doesn't mean you can't fly in any orientation possible.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --