Beginner Question about Safe Landings

[SCOTT735 0]

OK, this is probably a dumb question, but I am really trying to understand the best way to land safely while still learning how to perform a well timed flare.
So, when you're a beginner, and during the landing the flare still leaves you with a fair amount of horizontal speed (and some vertical speed) should you run it out, slide (baseball style) or PLF?
I am not sure if you are supposed to PLF if you have alot of forward speed.

[Remster 30]

What did your instructors tell you?

Remster

[pchapman 279]

Quick (?) answer:

Sliding is a more advanced maneuver, that is useful, but only if you have little vertical speed ... and already have the judgment to determine what kind of speed you have, which isn't always true for a beginner. It can also take practice to get right, which a given person may or may not have.

With a student canopy, you don't really get the "high" horizontal speed where a slide can be the best option. (Well, except when downwinded.)

Don't run something out unless you really are sure you'll have almost no vertical speed and runnable horizontal speed.

It all comes down to:
as a beginner, PLF is the best overall option if one isn't sure of landing softly on one's feet.

[SCOTT735 0]

pchapman,
Thanks for the advice, it makes sense. I don't really like the idea of "running it out" or "sliding" based on my inexperience. I just wasn't sure if a PLF was meant for absorbing the forces from the horizontal speed. I'm sure it seems alot faster to me than it really is (due to inexperience).
I will dicuss it with my next instructor when I am ready for my next jump...just trying to figure it all out. Thanks.

[popsjumper 2]

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I just wasn't sure if a PLF was meant for absorbing the forces from the horizontal speed.

Yes. The PLF is designed to absorb the forces of both the horizontal AND the vertical.

The whole point of the PLF is to spread out that shock of impact over a wide area of your body...a little here, a little there...so that you don't take it all in one place which will decrease the chances of injury.

That energy that you are distributing over your body comes from both the horizontal AND vertical directions. You will ALWAYS have vertical motion. You may or may not have horizontal motion.

High Horiz/Low vert. -
You get softer landings simply because you get whatever vertical impact energy spread over a larger distance and time (touchdown to stop). This is where run-outs and slide-ins are possible.

Low Horiz/High vert. -
Whew! Here's where the PLF really, really comes in handy. You'll be getting that shock of impact all at once in a short distance and time. You won't be getting run-outs and slide-ins done successfully here.

In a nutshell, the higher the vertical, the better benefit of a PLF.
The higher the horizontal the better the chance of run-out and slide-in.

You job is to develop the sense of which is which and when is when (High/Low horiz and High/Low Vert) and where those limits are that determines which is the better technique to use.


The strong recommendation is:
PLF like your bones depend on it until you develop that sense of just what IS "High/Low horiz and High/Low Vert".

I'll second pchapman's advice as being spot on.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SCOTT735 0]

Thanks popsjumper,

It's all starting to make more sense. Now it's a matter of getting the feel and putting it to practice WITHOUT breaking a bone.
For now: PLF, PLF, PLF.

[popsjumper 2]

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For now: PLF, PLF, PLF.

I wouldn't argue with that at all.

I tell my students:
One of these days you'll NEED to do a good PLF to save your bones. Wouldn't it be a good idea to know how to do one AND have some practice at it before you actually needed it?

I personally believe that one major cause of so many bone breaks on landings is because people don't take the time and make the effort to learn how to do proper PLFs....and when crunch time comes..... *SNAP*. Too bad for them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ufk22 33]

First answer, ask your instructor......
but....
you seem (based on this and all the rest of your posts) seem to be an "anal-analitical" kind of guy, so here is my "anal-analitical" answer.
The hardest part of skydiving is to put your faith in what you're taught. In order to do this, you have to use the "smart" part of your brain to overcome basic reflexes and learned reflexes.
Basic reflex=we all want to stand up. We are upright, bi-pedal creatures, have been for thousands of years. There is something deep in your "lizard brain" that says "keeping myself standing up is a major priority". In skydiving, falling down properly (the PLF) is the major priority. Your intellectual side can overcome your reflex, but you need to understand the conflict and have faith that falling down is the best answer.
The only answer. Sliding or running it out shouldn't even be an option at this point in your skydiving.
This also applies to putting out a hand to stop your fall. This is a learned reflex to try and accomplish the "want to keep upright" reflex. When I teach students to flair, the last part of the flair is bring your hands into your crotch, cupping one hand over the other and that hand grabbing the other hand, elbows in tight.
With one hand holding the other, a reflexive reaction (putting out that hand to stop the fall) can only happen after first making a conscious decision to release the grip.
The fact that you seemed to have a lot of forward speed and some downward speed means two things.
1. You flaired a little late. This can easily happen with only five jumps, especially if you're jumping a smaller canopy on that jump.
2. You were looking down rather that out at the horizon. Another reflex thing. While in reality most of your momentum was forward, because you were up in the air even a little, your reflex was to look down because when we are normally off the ground, we'll end up straight below where we are. I don't know your DZ landing area, so do NOT do this without discussing it with an instructor, but a technique that has worked well for me teaching student landings is (if possible and safe) try to land 50-100 feet downwind of a wind blade or wind sock. Keep your eyes on the top of the windblade once on final, and use it in reference to the horizon to time your flair. Once again, DO NOT do this without discussing it with an instructor. Depending on wind speed, direction, etc, this may not be a safe thing to do at yoru DZ.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[popsjumper 2]

Some good points, awfully tough to read.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ufk22 33]

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Some good points, awfully tough to read.

I warned that it was the "ANAL-analytical" version.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[hchunter614 0]

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Keep your eyes on the top of the windblade once on final, and use it in reference to the horizon to time your flair.

I would be very careful recommending this because this can easy lead to target fixation. The way I have always heard it explained is to "look out at the horizon" not specifically at a single object.

[ufk22 33]

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Keep your eyes on the top of the windblade once on final, and use it in reference to the horizon to time your flair.

I would be very careful recommending this because this can easy lead to target fixation. The way I have always heard it explained is to "look out at the horizon" not specifically at a single object.

That's why I said to set up for a landing 50-100' downwind and to look at the top of it AFTER they have started final. It's also why I suggested a wind-blade that is out in the open rather than a tree, building, etc. It's easy to say "look at the horizon", but low-time students have a tendency to look straight down at the last second. Having a definite thing to look at that is far enough away so as not to be able to hit it sometimes helps. This also gives them altitude reference for starting their flair.
I've used this many times over the years, only with people that seem to have dificulty judging when to start their flair or people that look down. A student that talks about how much faster the canopy is flying at flair time is looking down rather than out "at the horizon".

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[skr 1]

> So, when you're a beginner, and during the landing the flare still leaves you with a fair amount of horizontal speed (and some vertical speed) should you run it out, slide (baseball style) or PLF?

I always PLF.

But you need to find someone who can teach you
how to do a PLF, and then practice it in all directions
about a zillion times.

Sliding seems like a bad idea because there are sticks,
rocks, and other weird stuff to hit when you land, plus
it wears your gear out.

I try to gauge my landing so that I come to a stop
with my feet about a quarter inch from the ground,
and then calmly place my feet on the ground.

That's hard to do with no wind, but if I have to take
more than a couple steps, I just PLF because for me
it's easier.

I've made it through quite a few less than graceful
landings because I'm really good at PLF's.

Skr

[popsjumper 2]

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Keep your eyes on the top of the windblade once on final, and use it in reference to the horizon to time your flair.

I would be very careful recommending this because this can easy lead to target fixation. The way I have always heard it explained is to "look out at the horizon" not specifically at a single object.

That's why I said to set up for a landing 50-100' downwind and....

The OP lists 5 jumps. Do you really think he could do what you are telling him to do?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239