when is the best time to start freefly?

[Newbie 0]

in terms of the safest? I am going to get my FS1 before i even try anything, but what do people think about starting straight after that? (which is essentially what i would like to do). Is it best to get more flat relative experience first, if so what sort of ways (big or small?) would be best and how many?

I know this is not really a quantifiable thing and it will also depend on the indivdual but what do all you experienced guys look for in a rookie, to indicate a readiness to start on the path into the dark?

Not sure if this has been posted before, but a link to a thread that covers this would be useful as i couldn't find anything.

Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[jerry81 10]

You might wanna read this thread; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=81839;search_string=getting%20started;#81839
I think the general consensus is that it's good to have some rw experiences before trying freeflying. If you're gonna do relative work, I think you should start with two-ways with an experienced skydiver and then work your way up. Of course, you might do like I did; dig up as much information on vertical flight as possible and attempt a vrw stable exit followed by a sit-fly the next time you jump. Discover that it's easy and you love it and never look back.
[Disclaimer: Wait for some other opinions on this subject. I really don't have enough jumps for you to listen to my advice before hearing others.]

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[PhreeZone 20]

Personally... I like it if people get about 100 RW jumps before they go vertical. Their awareness levels are higher then someone that does it at 50 jumps.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skymama 37]

I'm not as experienced as a lot of the people on this forum, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. I think it's always better to have some quality rw jumps under your belt before you start freeflying. In the flat flying position, you are much more able to practice docking with people and staying relative with them than if you are vertical. Once you have practice with that, then I would suggest starting with a sit, and get that down really well before you move on from that. For example, make sure you can stay stable without corking, know how to have forward and backward movement and be able to stop when you want to stop, and know how to keep on heading. The main thing to remember is think safety.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[klingeme 1]

andrea,

I have close to 700 jumps and I have not yet had a "Quality RW jump" .

Seriously, as long as you ave a ditter, good atlitude awareness, and a A license, I say go for it. Watch a lot of videos and talk to a lot of people for pointers and have fun, but stay safe. The speeds in FFing are much faster.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[skymama 37]

Quote

I have not yet had a "Quality RW jump"

That's true...."quality RW jump" could be considered an oxymoron anyway. heh heh

To clarify, I mean get used to jumping with other people and I'm sure you'll agree it's easier and safer to do that while on your belly than while vertical. I started freeflying at around 40 jumps, so I'm not saying it has to be a huge number before someone should try it. It's all about quality, not quantity anyway. I have 2 friends who collided while freeflying and one broke his nose and one broke his arm. So, I'm always stressing safety with newbies so they'll be in that mindset before they even start attempting to freefly.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[MissMissy 0]

(today's my day posting i guess!!) when should one start freeflying... well first know that this is only my opinion.. so please take it for what it's worth...

after a student program, it is wise to learn basic belly flying skills such as turns, tracking and jumping with others. learning to fly on your belly and gaining awareness is very important in wanting to expand your skydiving career. why? every person must go to their belly to pull (and you've got to be stable!)!!

secondly, make sure you have three-dimensional freefly friendly equipment. this is very important because flying vertically drastically increases your fall rate (and you wouln't want a pre-mature opening or risers coming off onto your shoulders in freefall!). make sure you have at least one visual and one audible altimeter (it's easy to loose track of altitude when you're learning and there's generally only 45 seconds of freefall time as compared to 60 seconds of belly flying). also a hard shell helmet is important because things happen a lot faster and they're not really a bad idea..!

next, get coaching or advice from well respected freefliers from your drop zone or travel to a dz that has a special event for beginning freefliers (check out the calendar of events on this site). learning this way will help advance you faster than having to do several solo jumps, 'just trying to figure it out.'

never feel intimidated to approach 'famous' or 'well-respected' freefliers.. i know they're more impressed with those wanting to learn and ask questions than those that think they're cool just 'thinking' they're doing it! (just my opinion ) if i can be any further assistance please let me know (and i hope i helped)

~fly safe my friends~
missy

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Missy Nelson
**Learning Never Stops**

[Satan666 0]

Doing your FS1 is the BPA requirement before attempting to learn FF and some UK Dzs are starting to impliment this.
Having done this then it is time to start FF as you have now learn't all the basics of RW as mentioned earlier in the posts. I don't agree with PhreeZone though on having 100 jumps or there abouts before doing Free flying. The worst thing you can do while FF is going flat during a jump (acceptable when you are by yourself but not others) and I have found RW people learning to FF instintively do this while learning to FF and they come off a position they are learning which is normally sit. 40 -50 jumps is more than adequate to start FF which it should be started with a good briefing or even better tuition from a coach/instructor.

[freeflyz 0]

Well i disagree,As soon as i got off student and got my A, I started freeflying at a young 30 jumps buy 60 jumps i was sitting,driving,than in another 30 to 50 jumps i was craving and sidesliding.And i became very aware in my Rw jumps,more than others that had more Rw jumps than me.But that just me.

[trigger 0]

I've never really experienced any RW.[Not unless you count Aff]but after 60jumps total,after practicing/perfecting [minds eye]back loops,front loops and learning to barrel roll in a track i was fortunate enough to take advantage of quality/reputable coaching in the dark arts, an approach i've continued to persue throughout my jumping life.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[Satan666 0]

This will always be an open debate, I myself have never had that problem, hated RW still do (except when we decide to do idiot 10way freeflyer RW jumps, good laugh) . People will always find there place in the sky through trial and error.

[freeflyz 0]

Yeah l don't have much Rw jumps about 20 to 25 if that,it's not my cup a tea.It's all about Freeflying!!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I don't think there is a certain magical jump number that people should use as to when or when they shouldn't try to free fly. For me, it was a case of trying it once I knew I was jumping with a free fly friendly rig (my first free fly jump was an attempt to do a solo sit on jump #43). For sure you want to be proficient in the sit first before venturing head down. The sit isn't all that dangerous, but being out of control head down is.

Now based on some recent observations, I believe that free fliers know how to fly their bodies way more than just belly fliers. I did a hoop jump at Eloy with a whole slew of belly fliers and one other free flier with the belly fliers having first crack at going through the hoop. The only belly flier to make it through the hoop was an experienced jumper and the funny thing that I saw was that myself and the other free flier (AggieDave) thought we were both in a great spot to make an attempt to get through the hoop. But all the other belly fliers took too long to get into position and we all ran out of altitude.

Also, during the same trip while on the DZ.COM formation loads, I noticed that some belly fliers with similar number of jumps numbers than what I have didn't get to the formation as fast as I did. Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that I was a formation skygod. Heck I don't have hardly any experience in this domain. It just seems that free fliers have a better knack at knowing how to fly their bodies than many belly people. So the sooner you want to learn how to fly your body, the sooner you should get into freeflying. I would still like to do the odd formation jump, but I'm a free flier all the way.

Come to the dark side my friend.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[FallingILweenie 0]

I think when you start to freefly also has to do with what you are doing jump-wise at the moment. I started freeflying at about jump 40, and that was because the summer i was saving for a rig all I did to jump was do a jump every 2 or 3 weeks or so just for currency and to scratch the skydiving itch. Since I only went to the DZ once in a while I didn't know people too much (it was a new dz for me), I did a lot of solo jumps where I played around with other body positions to see how it feels like to not be on your belly, and to not be on your belly and stay in control. After that summer I went back to my home dz and i had at least a start on freeflying, so then when i got actual coaching i was able to improve somewhat quickly and have never looked back!

blue skies
Tomas

[rapper4mpi 0]

Wow, a few people giving advice in here, that, well, maybe should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course, there are also a few that are MORE than qualified to be giving advice. Anyway, that's another debate alltogether. However, keep this in mind, throughout your entire skydiving career. Versatility will make you a better jumper, will make your jumps more fun, and will keep it interesting. The best freeflyers in the world are quite accomplished on their bellies, and the ones that aren't so good on their bellies will be the first to admit that it limits what they can do in the air. Freeflying is about flying your body on all axis, belly, back, side, headown, head-up and everything else inbetween. So the short answer is get accomplished at all types of dives, including on your belly. Good luck, be safe and always ask for help from local jumpers at your DZ who know your flying skills best!
-Rap

[dragon2 2]

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Versatility will make you a better jumper, will make your jumps more fun, and will keep it interesting. ... So the short answer is get accomplished at all types of dives, including on your belly.

Sounds good. I personally am doing that. Problem is, that with my 256 jumps now I´m not really proficient at anything yet. Been doing a bit of freestyle, bit FS, some CREW and mostly FF. Cause I like it all. This also involves jumping maybe too many different canopies (have 2 different mains, plus the tri´s and lightnings for CREW). In one weekend I might do something like this: a CREW jump, a H&P from altitude, a lower H&P, 2 freefly jumps and a belly jump. I think I learn more if I do like 4 belly jumps in a row...

Plus side: I have a lot of different experiences. I can go on different types of dives (at a basic level). Also, CREW is good for you

Down side: I´m not really good at any of this yet. Dives (of any kind) above a basic level are too much. Also I still haven´t got my B license .

Note to self: stick to one type of jumps per weekend...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[blueshrew 0]

It always seemed to me that the "old" jumpers would tell you to definitely do some rw first.
well i started freeflying at jump 12, although i only jumped with instructors my first 80 jumps or so, until i got an ok to jump with others.
those "old" jumpers would tell me "you know what i was doing at jump xy, i was seeing someone else in the sky for the first time, and you're annoyed cause you have this or that problem in freeflying"
in my experience, you don't need rw first, and having done some freefly first, rw was fairly easy to grasp in the 3 (boring) rw jumps i did. fact is, that in freefly you get more awareness of your movement, and unstability is not an issue anymore, you learn to recover in zero time. i agree with freeflyz all the way.

[rapper4mpi 0]

Again, I guess I have to make it clear again. It is better to be good on all axis than to be just good at say headown, and not very accomplished in a head-up position or on your belly. The top freeflyers in the world are flying in all orientations. I'm not saying there is a magic number to start at, but just take your time and get comfortable on your belly before going into head-up position, where things happen faster and their result can be worse. And this advice is coming from a "Young-aged" freeflyer.
-Rap

[freeflyz 0]

Yes things do happen fast ,But as a rule i never ask a person with a few FF to come on a 12 way sit. It's one on one till they learn to fly there body,a basic jump will have him or her sit stable and on heading,than driving slow to a all out drag race,i work with them till they have the abitliy to move around the sky and being aware of what is around him or her at all times,I never teach head down to anybody that can't sit! That is too much to handle at first,once you have awarness of your body it time to go head down!!!!

[blueshrew 0]

from my experience, freeflying makes you learn rw way faster than the other way around.
and as i already have said, i think you should do a lot of solos/instructor jumps before you go with others.
the funny thing is that there are loads of high time rw people that are just sad to look at when they try to freefly.
my point is, anyway, that it is totally insignificant what you do first if you ultimately want to freefly, and the rule about rw first has definitely proven to be crap. again i agree with freeflyz.

[rapper4mpi 0]

Oops! Didn't mean to delete my above post. Anyway, whoever reads this, just be safe when you learn freeflying, or any flying style for that matter. Have fun, and do what feels comfortable, no matter how you go about it.
-Rap

[Ron 10]

Well All I am going to say is....

Listen to the people who have experiance.

Missy Nelson just wrote that flat RW skill is needed.
She has 3500 jumps and is GOOD at Freeflying (and cute).

And you have people telling you that it is not needed...And some of these people have all of 200 jumps.

Who do you think I would take advice from?
Who should you listen to?

Also just regular RW is not hard. Good RW is hard.

And if most flat dives went like most VRW dives....we would call them zoos and vow never to do that again.

But if it is your bag, have fun....but remember that it is the flat stuff that gets you away and saves your life. It would be a good idea to have the basics dawn before you get crazy....And if you ever want to be AFF or Tandem the Flat flying you do now will pay off.

But what do I know?
Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jerry81 10]

I hate to disagree with you (more so since I'm one of those people with less than 200 jumps), but in certain situations thay may occur when freeflying, the flat stuff just might be the thing that gets you hurt, or worse.
Missy is, of course, right when she says that you should have basic belly-flying skills before you try ff, but the dangers of going flat when in a bad ff situation have also been pointed out in this discussion. In general, I think a newbie should get an overall impression on how and when to start with vertical stuf from this thread.

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[apoil 0]

Quote

I'm not as experienced as a lot of the people on this forum, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. I think it's always better to have some quality rw jumps under your belt before you start freeflying. In the flat flying position, you are much more able to practice docking with people and staying relative with them than if you are vertical. Once you have practice with that, then I would suggest starting with a sit, and get that down really well before you move on from that. For example, make sure you can stay stable without corking, know how to have forward and backward movement and be able to stop when you want to stop, and know how to keep on heading. The main thing to remember is think safety.

My feeling is similar, but more inclusive.
You should be fairly competent at RW before you start freeflying as a primary discipline.

I think it is a very good idea to TRY sit flying a few times after you get your A license just to see what it's about.

To make freeflying essentially forbidden or even discouraged for the first 100 jumps will just make it that much more of a temptation, and in my opinion will only continue to drive the two disciplines apart, rather than bringing them closer together. People will either get into their RW and reject freefly, or they will find freefliers who say "that's bullshit, come freefly with us now" and they will reject RW.

I believe that the occasional freefly jump will actually help in your early RW progression. You are not as disoriented should an exit funnel, and it helps you to feel free and relaxed in the air, even on your belly.

I used to do mostly RW but I would often conclude the day with a sit dive at sunset. Or I would work on RW mostly, and every so often do a day of freeflying. In the short term, I didn't aquire mastery of either discipline for a little longer, but in the long run, I am a much better all around flyer.

[apoil 0]

Quote

And if most flat dives went like most VRW dives....we would call them zoos and vow never to do that again.

you were doing fine until you said that.
That's a prejudice a lot of hardcore RW people have about VRW.
Times are changing. Considering that a VRW dive in terms of difficulty is sort of like an RW dive 3 or 4 times the size, good VRW folks can get 4 or 5 points on a 4 way pretty consistently.

It also seems to take about 3 times as many jumps vertical to master such basic skills as level control, side slideing flying a slot, and taking grips.

So anyhow, just as in RW, the experienced guys come down coming pretty close to accomplishing what they dirtdived and the less experienced guys come down going "wow that was fun - we almost had it"