when is the best time to start freefly?

[bbarnhouse 0]

Ugh...I have been sitting on my hands on this one...til now.
imho...one must learn to crawl before they walk and then learn to run. All flying begins (or should) with rw....it is the basis for everything. Movement, control, stability and so on. (yeah I know I always say I am not a belly flyer...but um guess what happens at pull time?)
I don't think that it has so much to do with jump numbers as it has to do with the quality of those jumps and what has been learned.
It is essential that folks have good body awareness in order to be a "proficient" flyer period. By learning the different disciplines, it only serves to make one a better overall skydiverAs my friend Omar likes to remind me....."It isn't anything that 10,000 jumps won't fix"....
xoxox
BB

[Ron 10]

Quote

In Reply To
And if most flat dives went like most VRW dives....we would call them zoos and vow never to do that again.


you were doing fine until you said that.

Hey Cliff.....Its called a joke. A way to impart humor into a conversation.

Quote

That's a prejudice a lot of hardcore RW people have about VRW.

How about the reverse where FF guys are saying that RW was boring??? I bet that you could take me on a VRW jump that I would be way over my head....But I also bet I could put you in a flat jump that would leave you in the dust....Just a different specialty.

I am impressed with GOOD FF....I however I think people are getting into it with out enough basic skydiving skills.

Vertical speed differances kill...be it the ground, a person, a canopy...ect....VRW requires a lot of skill (I never said it didn't) and a very good ability to keep an eye on everything. A lot of 200 jump jumpers don't have it.

But like I said listen to Missy...

What do I know I only do boring 4way?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[fedykin 0]

FS1 before freefly?Let me explain why the BPA implemented this sticker mad crap

when freeflying was starting the STC realized there weren't many freeflying coaches in the UK(not many now, any of note anyways)so they(all flatflyers, not understanding freeflying)thought that some of the skills could best be learnt flat(ie..warp levels etc..)the situation has changed but STC's attitude hasn't

i took 2 friends(starting freeflyers) to eloy to do thier coaching with AFI + alaska jon. One of them who has done 100+ RW jumps kept on going flat, when he should have gone into the ball, even when told and took a long time to establish a somewhat stable sit position, if there is any tangible benifit from doing FS first, i didn't see it. The one who had no FS experience didn't have the same problem and faster learning curve

understanding that everyones learning curve isn't the same i still say that i you want to freefly, then screw FS first, just go out and get lots of quality coaching first, and take your time with it.

FS doesn't increase safety or make some anymore aware, yeah, its great to have another body position you are proficient in, but overall we are just dealing with the BPA's overall policy of FS first, and another means of promoting it.

Back to self medicating myself and the rubber rooms

[apoil 0]

Quote

Hey Cliff.....Its called a joke. A way to impart humor into a conversation.

It didn't really come across that way, just as it didnt in the other forum where you posted the same thing.

Quote

That's a prejudice a lot of hardcore RW people have about VRW.

How about the reverse where FF guys are saying that RW was boring???

Well, since you mention it:
That's a prejudice that a lot of FF guys have about RW.

This is the Freefly forum. If a freeflyer went into the Relative Work forum and posted that RW is boring, that would be considered Trolling, whether it was intended to be humorous or not.


I have far more respect for Freefliers who have developed some mastery of belly flying.

Even among freefliers there are those who never even bothered to master their head up flying beyond getting it basically right and going on to head down flying exclusively.

Quote

I bet that you could take me on a VRW jump that I would be way over my head....But I also bet I could put you in a flat jump that would leave you in the dust....Just a different specialty.

Only if it's hardcore 4way with lots of verticals.

Excluding the staff and organizers, and the competitive teams (the good ones), I'm actually one of the BETTER belly flyers at Zhills.

But that has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
I don't disparage RW.

--
I am impressed with GOOD FF....I however I think people are getting into it with out enough basic skydiving skills.
--
no argument there. And the people who do that, will suffer because their training is imbalanced.


All I say is that there's nothing wrong with learning SOME freeflying while mastering RW.
It's almost as if the RW folks are holding on by a thread insisting that RW be mastered before people do ANY Freeflying at all because they are afraid the might lose too many new jumpers to Freeflying.

I take a more inclusive approach. Everything should be learned and explored and RW is very important, especially early on, but that doesn't mean DONT freefly, it just means pursue it sensibly and take the time to build a foundation.

[Ron 10]

Quote

In Reply To



Hey Cliff.....Its called a joke. A way to impart humor into a conversation.



It didn't really come across that way, just as it didnt in the other forum where you
posted the same thing.

Well geeze sorry!!!

Quote

In Reply To


I bet that you could take me on a VRW jump that I would be way over my
head....But I also bet I could put you in a flat jump that would leave you in the
dust....Just a different specialty.




Only if it's hardcore 4way with lots of verticals.

Well if you like I'll put you in a random only 4way this weekend with out a single vert....If fact you might be better at verts than some people...VRW get it? Steve J, myself, Box and you....I bet your brain gets fried.

Just like Pip, you and Berry would waste me on a FF jump.

I also never said you didn't know how to Flat fly...you have an AFF ticket..That speaks volumes....

And not starting anything, but did you take the course twice? If so was it due to not being current in flat? I know you can skydive, but did flat currency play a part?

I only ask this due to it if it was a case of flat currency it could be used to state that if you want to do AFF later, it might be wise to do more flat jumps now.

Quote

All I say is that there's nothing wrong with learning SOME freeflying while mastering
RW.

I agree, and never said other wise.

Quote

It's almost as if the RW folks are holding on by a thread insisting that RW be mastered
before people do ANY Freeflying at all because they are afraid the might lose too many
new jumpers to Freeflying.

Nope, but I do wish they would TRY RW it before they decide its boring. And I do wish they stay safe, and learn enough RW to stay alive. I also wish that they REALLY learn to sit before going headdown.

Quote

I take a more inclusive approach. Everything should be learned and explored and RW is
very important, especially early on, but that doesn't mean DONT freefly, it just means
pursue it sensibly and take the time to build a foundation.

Yep, I agree. I was even thinking of doing some sit this weekend. Its been a while, and with 2500 flat jumps I just might have enough flat skills to stay safe. (P.S. The smiley face is a hint that that was a joke!)

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skypup 0]

Here is my attentive but low experianced oppinion.

First play around with different aspects of the sport and body positions as you feel safe in doing so. If your not sure if it's "safe yet" I'm sure some of the people who have seen you fly will be able to advise you.

Personally, I had about 50 RW jumps before I started freeflying. When I did decide to start I did about ten solo sit jumps.

During those 7 - 10:
Start by having someone explain the position and how to move in it to you.
Practice making the whole dive in a sit. NO belly flying till pull time.
You are likely to be backsliding really bad so try to face perpendicular to the jump run and turn around every once in a while.
When you cork ball up then get back into the sit.
Try moving your hips forward and back and to the side, try knees together, knees apart, stand, extera till you. Many of these things will make you cork, that's fine practice quick recoverys.

After those solo's do a two way with video with an experianced jumper... this way you can see your body position and make some adjustments.

After that your off and running. Get a really solid sit with other people then do stand, then headown and transitions.

Then I would try and decide what you would like to do from there. If you want to do hybrids spend some more time on rw skills and swooping down to formations. If you just want to freefly stick to it. Or just decide to be ok at both RW and VRW

T.S.S # 5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To dream great dreams is itself an act of daring. -Eric Shipton & Bill Tilman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[apoil 0]

Quote

And not starting anything, but did you take the [AFF] course twice? If so was it due to not being current in flat? I know you can skydive, but did flat currency play a part?

I only ask this due to it if it was a case of flat currency it could be used to state that if you want to do AFF later, it might be wise to do more flat jumps now.

Flat currency played a part, but like most things skydiving it's largely mental.
Getting current enough to pass the course the second time was more a matter of DECIDING to, than actually doing it. I just started doing flat jumps and flying like an AFF I on those jumps.

I took the course the first time, more out of curiosity, and to test myself. Not passing it got me fired up enough to really make sure I had the skills the second time around. And that's not to say that my motivations for becoming an instructor were misguided. What also gelled for me between courses was exactly why I was bothering in the first place.

As to when to do the flat jumps, I don't really think it matters, but if you expect to do AFF, they should be done. In a lot of ways, though, AFF is like freeflying on your belly. The sudden changes in fall rate and overall unpredictability is not something you find in typical sequential RW. That said, Pip says the 4way competitors generally have the least trouble in the course, while freeflyers and videographers struggle the most. But what does he know? :)

[blueshrew 0]

I couldn't agree more.
If someone with a bunch of jumps is saying do rw first, it is probably because that's the way they started out. but it is not necessarily right.
i am one of the 200 jump people, but one that was fortunate enough to be going out with one of the best freeflyers over here.
freefall safety primarily involves not colliding with anyone and tracking away safely. well tracking is part of ff, and most freeflyers i've seen are much better trackers than flat-flyers.
as for collisions, everyone agrees that doing coached jumps and a lot of solos before going with others of your level is the thing to do.
as fedykin already pointed out, rw can give you really bad recovery habits for freefly. i have seen videos of really experienced rw people that were way more dangerous on their first ff jumps than any newbie learning ff.
apart from that, when you're a fflyer stability is not an issue. you learn to recover much faster, and have a lot more space awareness.
that is probably the 21st century equivalent of the student and square canopy debate of the last decade.

[apoil 0]

Quote

I couldn't agree more.
If someone with a bunch of jumps is saying do rw first, it is probably because that's the way they started out. but it is not necessarily right.
i am one of the 200 jump people, but one that was fortunate enough to be going out with one of the best freeflyers over here.
freefall safety primarily involves not colliding with anyone and tracking away safely. well tracking is part of ff, and most freeflyers i've seen are much better trackers than flat-flyers.

Not sure who you are agreeing with because the consensus here seemed to be that doing RW is important to freefly, and that each is a big help to the other especially early on in your training.

Freefly tracking dives are incredibly awesome, but they are not strictly about tracking for separation. In fact they are about exactly the opposite - tracking for proximity, ie flying relative in a tracking mode. When good RW people come on a tracking dive, they say "that isn't tracking". Because in their normal track they will be far faster and flatter than the leader unless the leader is maxed out. And maxing out is not the way to lead a tracking dive. You need to allow for people to speed up if they are falling behind. RW people rarely experiment with slowing down forward motion of a track, or adjusting it's fall rate. They tune their track to be increasintly flatter and faster because thats the skill they need for bigger and bigger formations.

What RW teaches you is about approaching formations, docking, staying out of burbles, etc. And it does it at lower speeds where you can actually learn and accomplish something. Controlled docking in freeflying is considered "advanced" to say the least.

Quote

i have seen videos of really experienced rw people that were way more dangerous on their first ff jumps than any newbie learning ff.

They are only dangerous to those who aren't skilled enough to stay with them and teach them.

Quote

apart from that, when you're a fflyer stability is not an issue. you learn to recover much faster, and have a lot more space awareness.

stability is not an issue to a freeflyer?
How long before you stopped corking? backsliding? continuing to drive forward after approaching a large headdown formation? If you haven't yet, then believe me you will. All of these are different forms of instablity and they are an issue.

Yes, freeflying gives you awareness of more spatial dimensions, but only after you get some experience. Everytime you learn something new in skydiving your awareness gets reduced to what is directly in front of you. Can you check the spot during a head down dive? Eventually you might be able to as you get used to it and begin to take in more. That's the benefit of RW, you get to work on those skills in a slower falling mode, and only deal with one dimension primarily that you can master before moving on to the virtical ones.

[fedykin 0]

fair point about the square canopy comparison.
you can clearly see how the past and personal bais affect ones perception, in the UK they made you do an intentional cutaway with a round canopy before you could go to a square when squares were taking off.
the rational for this is unclear though you can surmise that something simular has happened with freeflying. to many older skydivers who consider it a black art(not understood), they try to have others progress through a system they understand(RW strangely enough).

If one is geniunelly interested in freeflying or freestyle, then the best means of starting is immediate coaching. Not only for safetys sake, but also because it is fairly difficult to justify spending x-amount of euros/dollars/pounds on WARP or Skydive U, that u arent really interested in doing.

What's the freeflying scene like in Germany, ive jumped quiet a bit with Wolf from Babylon, who's really cool, and there were alot of Germans with us in Eloy at the Xmas boogie who were really cool.
What's the weather like?

Back to crappy English weather, i need to go back to Canada.

p

[fedykin 0]

the issue of stability on ones belly is not directly transferable to freeflying. first one works on correct body position, then maneavers(transitions, movemnt, docking). being stable on ones belly doesnt impart the ability to avoid corking on ones head or feet or back etc... in many cases spending alot of time working on your belly makes that your 'base position' so when you loose whatever position you were working on, you go back to your 'base'. it is just a case of reverting back to what is most natural to you. i did freefly coaching as soon as i finished my consolidation jumps(i was practicing sit flying on my consols too), and my natural base position is in a sit because i have been flying that for some time.

docking isn't really 'advanced'. it's just a case of being able to fly your slot were you require it to be, and some independant hand movement and overall body compensation(bottle jumps help for this)

tracking, im not sure what your point is. yes in sepperation i track faster then i usually do in a tracking dive, though i have done some stupidly fast tracking dives and some angled ones like atmonauti.

whatever, i usually find that the biggest advocated of RW first are non freeflying RW coaches, and older skydivers who dont really understand freeflying.
this isnt me on a crusade against RW, im just personally focused on progression, not in my eyes 'wasting time' on RW, and having others do the same when they arent interested in it.

blabla

[blueshrew 0]

Quote

Not sure who you are agreeing with because the consensus here seemed to be that doing RW is important to freefly, and that each is a big help to the other especially early on in your training.

I was agreeing with the fact that rw doesn't do much for you if you if you're interested in ff.

Quote

Freefly tracking dives are incredibly awesome, but they are not strictly about tracking for separation.
In fact they are about exactly the opposite - tracking for proximity, ie flying relative in a tracking mode.
When good RW people come on a tracking dive, they say "that isn't tracking".

Then how come it's almost always the rw guys that get left behind in tracking dives? I guess everyone has their tracking style, but the way it's done here, it's pretty fast, and if you don't have it figured out, you drift back pretty fast. The point of tracking is covering horizontal distance, and if you're slow, you're probably not really moving much.
I can only speak of the DZ I jump at. Sometimes at sunset one of the freeflying DZO goes on a rw big way. If you see them separating, you would know what I mean. His separation is double the distance of all the others, an he has it from the tracking dives.

Quote

What RW teaches you is about approaching formations, docking, staying out of burbles, etc.

That would make sense if was comparable, but it just is not. The way you would approach an rw formation is entirely different in body movement than ff. Docking is also not exactly comparable.
And burbles are very different in location/size.

Quote

And it does it at lower speeds where you can actually learn and accomplish something. Controlled docking in freeflying is considered "advanced" to say the least.

Lower speed is a good point, but your learning curve to where you actually want to get is not accelerated by doing rw first, it is probably even slowed down somewhat.
The lowdown is that it will take longer to jump with others of your level if you start with ff. with rw most DZO will allow you to go on a 2-way right after getting your licence.

Quote

stability is not an issue to a freeflyer?
How long before you stopped corking? backsliding? continuing to drive forward after approaching a large headdown formation?

well, if you're on big-ways before you learn to fly stable, something is seriously wrong at your DZ.
that is the whole point of getting proper coaching and solos before you do that.
But the stability issue I was talking about (which you snipped out) is that a fflyer recovers a lot faster.
A lot of rw people will get totally freaked out if something unpredictable happens, whereas in ff you grow up with unpredictables and are always watching for them.

Quote

Yes, freeflying gives you awareness of more spatial dimensions, but only after you get some experience.
...
Can you check the spot during a head down dive? Eventually you might be able to as you get used to it and begin to take in more.

and no one said you should jump right into things you don't have the experience for. i am not going to say coaching again. If the experienced guys do a difficult jump, they only take the ones that can fly it.
But over here things are probably more controlled and manageable than in the US.

From what I hear, you spot before you jump ;) And I can't exactly imagine a hardcore 4-way rw spotting during a jump. Strange point.
I have a good look around before and after the jump (on exit and on tracking), and I dare say that that is enough.

[blueshrew 0]

The freeflying scene in Germany is very progressive right now. I think there are more people going in to freefly than rw, but that may only be around berlin.
There are the "big boys" that meet every now and then to fly vrw 8 to 14-ways (there weren't enough people with the experience for more last year). Apparently there are a couple of groups that will probably be able to help out in bigger-ways next season.
Then of course, there are loads of fun jumpers.
Last year there was only 1 big freefly event, but next season, there are going to be afew more. I hope the sun wakes up soon.

[apoil 0]

You guys are funny.

You talk about the ideal progression, but you started freeflying right off student status.

You talk about the rw guys "always getting left behind" and then say you can only speak for the dz you jump at.

Consider this: freeflying is ultimately controlled flight in any direction.
RW helps you master the use of your "abdominal control surface".

All good freefly teams are incorporating belly flying into their routines.

can you do the 3D dive? It's worth trying.
More and more our freefly skydives include a belly point or two.

Try this: Head down no contact exit, build a 4 way head down round, transition to a sit campfire, transition to belly, build a round, then with the grips simultaneously punch into a stand.

Or a dive recently cooked up by Mike Wittenburg at zhills:
the "two by four"

Two points head down
Two points sitting
Two points belly
Two points tracking

Advanced Head down flying often looks a lot like RW.
We've taken a fair number of 4way randoms and built them on our heads. Why? Because we can.

[flyboyshell 0]

This is a good topic!

Blue Skies!!!

FlyBoyShell
EarthBound FreeFly Suits