Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you....

[firemedic 7]

Each of these safety improvements were opposed by people who thought skydiving gear was good enough, so why try to make it better. I think history has shown the critics wrong on all of the above counts, and I believe it will also find them wrong about the Skyhook. The Skyhook has been installed on over 15,000 rigs now, with millions of jumps logged, and quite frankly, it has had far fewer problems than any of the above mentioned safety advances.

Bill, I've packed roughly 40-50 SkyHook equipped rigs.
I've done Sigmas, Vectors and Javelins. I've looked at them very closely and I can't see how anyone can pack it "Backwards" as was stated somewhere here. Short of tying off the hook with something other than a turn of seal thread, I can't see how you can potentially prevent the pilot chute from deploying the canopy in the event of a main total. Is there anything else to watch out for that could be a problem?

[jjudd 0]

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All riggers make mistakes; the best of them make them infrequently and usually catch them before the rig goes out. None are perfect.

That is an unacceptable comment. Making a mistake while training to become and learning from it is ok. If I as a paramedic push the wrong drug or do my job poorly my patient dies. I will be pursued in court and potentailly lose all I have.

A rigger is the same as a medic, nurse, or doctor and anyone that is a rigger and feels differently needs their rating yanked! You are responsible for my and others live's and if you can get a half-assed rating we need to fix that. Simply put you should be proficient at what you do and if you don't remember reference you materials or dont do it.

[jjudd 0]

well put, its pretty obvious which way you want the hook to go other wise the rsl wouldnt pull the reserve pilot chute. if you cant get that right you should not be skydiving let alone driving

[jjudd 0]

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Don't forged that in the Chicago incident, the reserve PC had 4000ft to create enough drag to release from the hook, but it fail to do so. Without the Skyhook he would have had a two out which is better than the main riser disconnect at 200 ft.

Did he just pull his reserve? Do we have a link to this incident?? Just so we can see what caused this to happen as im not familiar with the incident.


Heres my thoughts without the knowledge, maybe the incident will prove me wrong though


all Main out mals- he cuts away and skyhook/rsl activates the reserve pin(either way pulling the reserve handle), if the reserve pc beats the main there is still line stretch and the free bag goes bye bye so that shouldnt be an issue either way.

-cotainer lock/reserve pull only. Lets say the thread doesn't break. release the rsl tab, boom no more issues. know your gear would be a good lesson if that was the case. 4000 feet is more than enough time to release that especially if the reserve pc is out pulling the rsl tight to the main. try it in freefall next time or under canopy its good to practice because you never know when you may have to do it to save your life


Just my thoughts but its like bill said we always still have the fear that the cypress vigil etc will fire for no reason in freefall or that your gear isnt set right.



Only fix is to know how your gear works and be sure its done right by watching or doing it yourself after becoming a rigger. If you cant then you shouldn't be jumping or using that equipment if you cant take the risk. And its a choice to use these things in america and the odds favor those that do clearly to those that dont

[mjosparky 4]

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A rigger is the same as a medic, nurse, or doctor and anyone that is a rigger and feels differently needs their rating yanked! You are responsible for my and others live's and if you can get a half-assed rating we need to fix that. Simply put you should be proficient at what you do and if you don't remember reference you materials or dont do it.

I don’t know how long you have been a medic but I spent 15 years as one and 30 years on a fair sized fire department. Medics, nurses and yes Doctors kill people every day. It’s not because of carelessness of lack of training or education. It’s because they are human and make mistakes. Some of those mistakes can kill people. Why do you think you are trained to check medication 3 times before administering? It is one way of reducing mistakes. If you unwilling to accept this you are in the wrong business.

A good rigger will do the same thing. They will establish a routine, or QA points, that will check critical evolutions 2 or 3 times. This too is a method of catching errors. But mistakes will and do get made. If you can’t accept this you are in the wrong sport.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jjudd 0]

And if you were indeed in the business along time then you probably did no harm and made sure your drugs were indicated by protocol and patient presentation.

A good rigger has the responsibility a good medic firefighter etc. do. There are shitty ones, period. It doesnt make it right

[Elite_Marksman 0]

jjudd, no matter how good a person is at their job, they are still a person. People make mistakes, rarely are they intentional, and often they don't realize they are making the mistake.

Perhaps the person was slightly distracted, their mind was on something else, they just had a long term relationship end, a friend or relative die, and they overlooked a small detail. When the act that they are performing has the potential to cause harm, a prudent person will check over their work at least twice, and if practicable have another also check over the work. Mistakes still happen.

Even assuming you found a way that you could pack your canopy the exact same way every time, and deploy every time in the same stable position, you will still have line twists and you will still have serious malfunctions.

The reason there are malfunctions isn't necessarily that the canopy was packed wrong, or the bridge was designed wrong, or the steel was fabricated incorrectly. The reason there are malfunctions is because the universe is full of chaos. When you stick a funny shaped object (skydiver) into a moving fluid (air), especially if the fluid itself is already behaving chaotically (our atmosphere), the fluid makes a burble behind said object. What happens inside this burble is completely and utterly unpredictable, it is the very definition of chaos. If you do it enough times there WILL be burst of air that throws your pilot chute around your foot, there WILL be a vortex that gets the PC upside down, there WILL be a burst of air that causes the canopy to twist.

Apply this concept to non-skydiving, in all aspects of our lives there are and always will be results that have at least some degree of unpredictability to them. We will NEVER be able to accurately predict the weather more than 8-10 days. It is not because we don't have the knowledge to be able to model the events, it is because those models are so incredibly complex, and in the case of weather, are equations that we will never be able to solve, only approximate.

Add in the fact that anything man designs suffers from the same defect as man and you should be able to see that no amount of thoroughness will be able to prevent all malfunctions, and no practical amount of thoroughness will prevent all human error.

To assert otherwise is to fail to see, or at the very least, comprehend the magnitude of our flaws.

[billvon 3,080]

>If I as a paramedic push the wrong drug or do my job poorly my patient
>dies. I will be pursued in court and potentailly lose all I have.

Yes. And that happens from time to time. No one is perfect.

>A rigger is the same as a medic, nurse, or doctor and anyone that is a
>rigger and feels differently needs their rating yanked!

Rigging is a LOT easier than surgery, and you can make much larger mistakes without killing the person. People choose to skydive for fun, and can decide to stop if they don't like the risk. A patient with leukemia does not have that opportunity, nor does he have the opportunity to go to school and learn to treat himself before he dies. so no, I don't think they are much alike at all.

>You are responsible for my and others live's and if you can get a
>half-assed rating we need to fix that. Simply put you should be proficient
>at what you do and if you don't remember reference you materials or dont
>do it.

Agreed to all of the above.

[mjosparky 4]

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And if you were indeed in the business along time then you probably did no harm and made sure your drugs were indicated by protocol and patient presentation.

A good rigger has the responsibility a good medic firefighter etc. do. There are shitty ones, period. It doesnt make it right

i don't feel the need to justify my history as a medic or a rigger to you. Your arrogance tells me a great deal about you. You look at the world as black or white, no shades of gray. If you claim you have never made a mistake you are lying to yourself, me or both.

You roll on multiple vehicle TC with trauma victims scattered all over and its 6 to 10 minutes before the next unit arrives. You are going to make mistakes and and cut corners. But you are going to bust your ass to try and save those you can. So get off you high horse, you're not God, you are human just like everyone else.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[feuergnom 29]

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All riggers make mistakes; the best of them make them infrequently and usually catch them before the rig goes out. None are perfect.

That is an unacceptable comment. Making a mistake while training to become and learning from it is ok. If I as a paramedic push the wrong drug or do my job poorly my patient dies. I will be pursued in court and potentailly lose all I have.

A rigger is the same as a medic, nurse, or doctor and anyone that is a rigger and feels differently needs their rating yanked! You are responsible for my and others live's and if you can get a half-assed rating we need to fix that. Simply put you should be proficient at what you do and if you don't remember reference you materials or dont do it.

pretty simplistic view of things. I hope you'll never make a mistake....

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[JohnSherman 1]

This is in reference to all of the comments about mistakes.

The easiest way to limit mistakes in the field is through design.

KISS- Keep it Simple Stupid.

Simply put, a MARD, of any sort, is a "Bandaid" which adds to the complexity.

It is just not necessary to add this complexity, to a parachute system, to accomplish a prompt reserve deployment. It can and has been done for over 20 years on some rigs. A MARD is a device to compensate for a low drag pilot chute or high bag extraction effort, or both, at low speeds, but it won't help you if the main is not out. Get a rig that "Works"

[gzimmermann 0]

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This is in reference to all of the comments about mistakes.

The easiest way to limit mistakes in the field is through design.

KISS- Keep it Simple Stupid.

Simply put, a MARD, of any sort, is a "Bandaid" which adds to the complexity.

It is just not necessary to add this complexity of a parachute system to accomplish a prompt reserve deployment. It can and has been done for over 20 years on some rigs. A MARD is a device to compensate for a low drag pilot chute or high bag extraction effort, or both, at low speeds, but it won't help you if the main is not out. Get a rig that "Works"

1. Mistakes while repacking skyhooked rigs happen. I can prove it with the attached picture, red Skyhook lanyard missing after repack. Please see posts 116 and 121 in thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4114143;page=5;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
2. I would not like to miss my Skyhook despite. I have had two cutaways within 6 months due to a spinning mal. First one with the red lanyard, did not even notice going in free fall after cutaway. Ironically the spinning mal MIGHT have been caused by a flap lock of my Icon rig (before the modification). Second one without the red lanyard, just RSL or me pulling silver. Got unstable and had line twists in the reserve. Ended well too. Not sure if I was relying on a Skyhook opening though, but that's another story.
My bottom line: Know your gear, check what can be checked visually after the repack. Do your EP as learned (stable, pull silver) no matter what your rig is equipped with.

[firemedic 7]

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well put, its pretty obvious which way you want the hook to go other wise the rsl wouldnt pull the reserve pilot chute. if you cant get that right you should not be skydiving let alone driving

That's pretty much my take on it. I can't see where the comment made in here about someone setting it up backwards came from.

[jjudd 0]

There is no arrogance here.

People make mistakes! The problem is the amount of them that shouldn't happen because of complacency or lack of integrity.


People can sum it up to accidents happen, but many can be prevented by better training and practice.


I'm certainly not perfect but I learn from my mistakes and am damn sure if Im doing something im doing it right.

and no where did i ask you to justify your history of your job nor do i care. if i havent worked with you i dont know you and im assuming you do what you do right

[Deyan 36]

Here you go

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4114143;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[mjosparky 4]

In the post I responded to you made no mention of "complacency or lack of integrity".

[reply]half-assed rating

[mjosparky 4]

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It is just not necessary to add this complexity

The complexity of rigs has gotten so bad that owners manual that used to be maybe 30/40 pages are now up around 85 pages. Since most skydivers don't bother to read the manual the added complexity in the name of safety puts the uninformed jumper farther behind the power curve. With out a steady supply of batteries many jumpers wouldn't last a season.

Sparky-

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jjudd 0]

Great Link! Guy was and is very lucky to be alive


The lanyard that comes off of the skyhook/rsl that the left riser cutaway cable runs through wouldn't be affected unless the right riser is released as it requires that to detach before the left would be released by the lanyard.

Not complex, it is a very simplistic idea that only activates after a cutaway is initiated and will release the left riser in the event the user only clears the right riser when he cuts away and one can always not use it while using the skyhook/rsl if they choose to not route the cutaway cable through the lanyard.



In regards the the incident it may have been better that he didn't have two out right away as it may have become an entanglement. Only fate would decide that.

Without the skyhook on his rig had the incident happened the way it did he would have bounced when he cutaway. Reserve pc's can trail like that without the red thread that is at the hook. In this case maybe it was enough to prevent a possibly worse situation, purely speculation as it could have been a better situation also if it opened higher without an entanglement and he dealt with it properly

[mjosparky 4]

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Not complex, it is a very simplistic idea that only activates after a cutaway is initiated and will release the left riser in the event the user only clears the right riser when he cuts away and one can always not use it while using the skyhook/rsl if they choose to not route the cutaway cable through the lanyard.

You keep thinking Butch.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 3,080]

>Not complex, it is a very simplistic idea that only activates after a cutaway
>is initiated and will release the left riser in the event the user only clears
>the right riser when he cuts away and one can always not use it while using
>the skyhook/rsl if they choose to not route the cutaway cable through the
>lanyard.

Now that was funny.

[jjudd 0]

feel free to elaborate moderator, as apparently im wrong but to my understanding that is how that works

[Remster 30]

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feel free to elaborate moderator, as apparently im wrong but to my understanding that is how that works

My guess is that Bill has a different definition of complex than you.

Remster

[KellyF 16]

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Great Link! Guy was and is very lucky to be alive


The lanyard that comes off of the skyhook/rsl that the left riser cutaway cable runs through wouldn't be affected unless the right riser is released as it requires that to detach before the left would be released by the lanyard.

Not complex, it is a very simplistic idea that only activates after a cutaway is initiated and will release the left riser in the event the user only clears the right riser when he cuts away and one can always not use it while using the skyhook/rsl if they choose to not route the cutaway cable through the lanyard.



In regards the the incident it may have been better that he didn't have two out right away as it may have become an entanglement. Only fate would decide that.

Without the skyhook on his rig had the incident happened the way it did he would have bounced when he cutaway. Reserve pc's can trail like that without the red thread that is at the hook. In this case maybe it was enough to prevent a possibly worse situation, purely speculation as it could have been a better situation also if it opened higher without an entanglement and he dealt with it properly

In this incident, the Collin's Lanyard didn't function as you describe because all of the velcro that holds the RSL lanyard to the rig (that normally the reserve pilot chute would be pulling against before it loaded the Collin's Lanyard) had been peeled by the opening forces when the stitch pattern failed. This allowed the piolt chute to load the left side cutaway cable (which may have been somewhat dislodged during the deployment) and cut the left riser away at ~200-250'. I hate to "monday morning quarterback" this jumper's actions since they obviously worked for him and were the right actions IN THIS CASE, but standard EP's would have been to either ride in what he had, or immediately deploy the reserve. His reserve was already deployed and ineffective due to the seal thread holding the hook to the RSL lanyard. So it was either ride in 1/2 a main or gamble with his life and cutaway.

No other system gives the reserve pilot chute the ability to cutaway 1/2 of the main parachute, and the force required to break the seal thread should certainly not be higher than the force required to extract the cutaway cable. I don't think a hook is the ideal design for a MARD due to the nature of the environment that it needs to operate in. Premature releases WILL happen. To counter that, a seal thread tack was added, which sacrifices the ability of the reserve to deploy at speeds where it would normally deploy. This creates a new set of EP's in some situations that aren't widely discussed.

I pay close attention to the Skyhook because I'm not convinced that the level of main/reserve integration that it has is a good thing. How many incidents have there been in the past 10 years where a standard RSL was implicated as a contributing factor?

[billvon 3,080]

>feel free to elaborate moderator

It's akin to someone saying "fly-by-wire systems aren't complex, they are a very simplistic idea that uses a redundant array of computers connected to a set of flight controls; the computers modulate their output based on a second set of inputs from air and attitude sensors, driving actuators that position the flight surfaces to allow for optimal control of the aircraft."

I agree with you in terms of how the skyhook system works. The Collins lanyard is a system that activates during a cutaway; it releases the left riser when the right riser releases but the left one doesn't. It's a trick used to get around a pretty nasty malfunction scenario where you initiate a Skyhook deployment into an attached main. It makes the overall Skyhook system more complex, and leads to statements like this:

"The lanyard that comes off of the skyhook/rsl that the left riser cutaway cable runs through wouldn't be affected unless the right riser is released as it requires that to detach before the left would be released by the lanyard."

It also leads to operational complexities, such as your main being cut away for you if you snag the RSL.

[mjosparky 4]

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It's akin to someone saying "fly-by-wire systems aren't complex, they are a very simplistic idea that uses a redundant array of computers connected to a set of flight controls; the computers modulate their output based on a second set of inputs from air and attitude sensors, driving actuators that position the flight surfaces to allow for optimal control of the aircraft."

Like the man said, a very simple idea.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals