Open door on takeoff

[Gato 0]

Quote

I've jumped at 25+ dropzones and I don't think I can ever recall a place where the door was not re-closed at some point prior to jump run; usually between 5,000 and 8,000 feet depending on how hot it is. This allows for everyone to safely do handle checks, for the TIs to safely hook up their students, for people to move around getting in position and putting up benches, without the added risk of something getting bumped during that process with an open door.

So you can still yell "DOOR!"

Good point. That's usually what happens at our DZ as well.

T.I.N.S.

[theonlyski 8]

Quote

Quote

One other thing no one's mentioned yet: If the door's open on the way to altitude, you're robbed of the privilege of yelling, "Door!"

I've jumped at 25+ dropzones and I don't think I can ever recall a place where the door was not re-closed at some point prior to jump run; usually between 5,000 and 8,000 feet depending on how hot it is. This allows for everyone to safely do handle checks, for the TIs to safely hook up their students, for people to move around getting in position and putting up benches, without the added risk of something getting bumped during that process with an open door.

So you can still yell "DOOR!"

It also makes it easier for the vidiots to do the 'in air interview'... Lot less noise when the door is closed.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So you can still yell "DOOR!"

yes, but please don't, it's idiotic

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyflower_bloom 0]

Quote

Quote

So you can still yell "DOOR!"

yes, but please don't, it's idiotic

But so much fun to do!

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[petejones45 0]

Quote

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Quote

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least you’re consistent.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 3,080]

>It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off . . .

>A open missing door is not a major issue

Overall it is a pretty significant issue.

1) If you fall out below 500 feet or so you can die.

2) If you have ANY gear problem, fixing it by an open door is a recipe for disaster. A loose PC, for example, is a non issue if a door is installed and closed. It may get everyone on the aircraft killed if there is no door there.

2a) The most likely time you will see a reserve suddenly appear is during a pin check, where people yank on covers, tug on cables etc. That's why it's a good idea to do it with the door closed. If the door cannot be closed either you a) skip pin checks (not a great idea) or b) take the risk with everyone in the airplane (also not a good idea.)

3) On takeoff tricycle gear aircraft with doors aft of the gear can kick up rocks, pebbles etc. I've lost a lens to this.

4) During an engine out on multiengine aircraft, the increase in drag during the adverse yaw can cause a loss of ability to climb or a stall.

5) It makes the odds of an unaccompanied tandem student falling out much, much higher.

>So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive.

The fact that people once jumped silk reserves does not make it a good idea to jump them today. (And the fact that even you yourself probably wouldn't jump a round silk reserve doesn't mean you have no respect for the pioneers in this sport.)

[petejones45 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least you’re consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[The_Don 0]

Quote

Quote

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[petejones45 0]

Quote

Quote

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

You are right skydiving is a dangerous sport, why make it more so by flying with the door off or open. We learned that years ago tourist.

Sparky

feel free to send all the pa's you want buddy

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[paulca 0]

From a newbie on static line, there is nothing quite like sitting beside the (lack of) door on a Cessna 206, knowing you are attached to the plane. Taking off from a full throttle + full brakes run up and clearing the trees at the end of the runway, with the plane creaking and groaning, by mere feet. Seriously there is a large tree either side that you look UP at!

No belts, 'cept your static line, worn out carpet, gaffa (duct) tape holding the plane head lining in place, etc. The plane itself is on it's second engine it's that old. 6 people on a 4 man plane.

My GF on the last jump she did, sitting in the door position, had to be grabbed by the guy behind her as the pilot decided a non coordinated 60 degree bank was appropriate! She said she really felt like she was going to fall out!

Myself sat in across from the door position hated the pilot when he got the shout, "10 to the right!" and promptly stamped on the rudder pedal to achieve this, rocking everyone around.

All part of the fun. Now for the serious question...

It was not part of our formal training, for that we were told, just listen up to the jump master, he will decide. But a qualified diver on one of our lifts, when the plane was showing signs of sick engine that day said, "700, 800ft if the engine dies I'm out, pull the reserve it opens faster."

Now I got to thinking, I'm on static line, at 800ft is it likely to deploy the main in time?

If I jump and do my emergency drill I'm certainly dead. So jump and immediate reserve and accept the fact I'm going to land with reserve and potentially a just deployed main entangled... I'll live, probably.

What would the best approach be?
(Well obviously, it IS: Listen to the jump master/dispatcher and he will decide!). but I'm curious for your opinions.

[nigel99 574]

Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

Quote

Now I got to thinking, I'm on static line, at 800ft is it likely to deploy the main in time?

Probably. Do you jump with an altimeter on your SL jumps? If so check how high you are under canopy next time you jump. My guess if you only lose 100-200 feet on a typical deployment.

I hated sitting next to the open door. By the way a 206 is a 6 seater (including the pilot).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Peterkn 17]

Quote

Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

The BPA operations manual says "Where parachutists restraints are fitted, they are to be used during take off and landing."

[nigel99 574]

Quote

Quote

Interesting so seat belts are not compulsory in the UK?

The BPA operations manual says "Where parachutists restraints are fitted, they are to be used during take off and landing."

Thanks. It is interesting seeing the differences between the UK and US way of doing things.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least you’re consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

Be sure to let me know when you start skydiving. I'm REAL interested in that. :-|

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

We learned that years ago, tourist.

both are good observations.

But, seriously, many newbies, as well as bucket list mid-lifers, get into the sport for their egos and, therefore, try to romanticize the "danger" image of the sport in unreasonable, naive, and sometimes really dorky ways.

They usually grow out of it or move on eventually to something else - usually because non-skydivers can be impressed if you skydive, but other skydivers aren't.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Other than a disconnect from today's sport where we have really good planners and athletes that progress the sport along with idiots that are impressed with themselves and take stupid risks and pretend its eXtREme.

Compare this to the olden times when we had really good planners and athletes that progressed the sport along with idiots that are impressed with themselves and take stupid risks and pretend its eXtREme...........nevermind

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trafficdiver 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

At least your head is screwed on straight. I wouldn't get on the airplane if they allow that.

It was pioneers in the old days that had to jump with the door off, if they hadnt the sport might not be where its at today. So please show some respect and thank them that you are allowed to skydive. An open door is not a major issue

And the pioneers jumped with B-4 containers and chest mount reserves. They had to, it was not by choice.
Taking with the door open can be a big deal. Operating with the door off/open changes the allowable VNE speeds as well as maneuvering speed. Placards must be in place to indicate what these speeds are. It can affect the aircrafts ability to reach V2 and V2min. causing a safety concern on shorter runways.
To take off with the door open is just not the smart thing to do.

Sparky

At least you’re consistent.

you are missing the point entirely.... skydiving is not a safe sport. if you want something safe to do take up golfing or ping pong!

Funny in your profile it says you have a Cypres 2, Why?

[bigbearfng 18]

An open door is not a major issue

[rehmwa 2]

Good skydivers control those risks that are controllable. Shutting a door is a pretty easy one to handle. It's simple really.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Peterkn 17]

Quote

If the seatbelts are off and the door is open on an Otter, then a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for one person. I think by 1000ft the risk of it happening vs the odds that it can be handled by a jumper are reasonable. I'm familiar with the WFFC incident a few years back where the premature deployed into the horizontal stabilizer, but that guy climbed out and held on all the way to inflation which wouldn't happen in the case we're talking about.

If the seatbelts are on and the door is open a pilot chute getting out the door is likely to be a problem for the whole plane whether you're at 1000ft or not. The risk of it happening isn't really any greater than in the above case but the stakes are much much higher.

I disagree.

If a pilot chute goes out the door then the jumper connected to it is going to manufacture a new door opening, somewhere between the trailing edge of the existing door and the tail of the aircraft.

Not only will this severely compromise the structural integrity of the aircraft but it’s very likely that the control mechanisms will also be damaged in the process – not great for anyone still in the aircraft, especially the poor pilot.

Don’t be fooled into thinking that the jumper will be able to respond quickly enough by diving out of the door after their pilot chute – if they were that switched-on then they wouldn’t have gotten themselves into this situation in the first place.

Hopefully we’ll never get see which one of us is right about this.

Pete.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

feel free to send all the pa's you want buddy

And what would that be?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Structurally speaking, the door on Cessna's is a must. Something ridged needs to be there for airframe flex.

Then how come the FAA says the following aircraft can be operated with door off? See attachment.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pchapman 279]

Although legal to fly some Cessnas door off, I wouldn't start doing high g rolling maneuvers and expect the fatigue life to be the same.

Ever taxied a C-182 etc on grass with the swing up skydiving door ajar? There's a surprising amount of flexing movement of the airframe around the door. At one DZ the rule (not always observed) was to taxi with the door closed, and I can understand why.

I don't know how tightly the door fits, but at some point it will take some of the loads, stiffening that giant hole in the structure. It's mostly the fuselage twisting sort of loads that cause the distortion, typical in ground maneuvering on uneven surfaces.

So it is "OK" to have the door open or off. But the plane isn't quite the same without.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

So it is "OK" to have the door open or off. But the plane isn't quite the same without.

I agree with you completely. I was responding to Tiddy’s comment “the door on Cessna's is a must”. When I started jumping everything was flown without a door. But a lot of things have changed since then most for the better.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals