power tools on main tray???

[andy2 0]

I've seen a few people use it on rigs that are hard to close. Usually I see it on freeflying rigs, people have the tension cranked up a little too much, and sometimes resort to power tools. Are there any negatives to using a power tool other than if you HAVE to have one you probably are putting way too much tension on your closing pin? I havn't used one, but the times I've seen them used it looks like it makes life a whole lot more easier. Why not use em?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Zenister 0]

define power tool?

a crank device?
or the 'pack boy' tool, which is simply easier to grab than a pull up cord?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[andy2 0]

sorry if I was vague, heres a link on paragear with the one I've seen (maybe there are different designs, this is the one I've seen though).

http://www.paragear.com/frame.asp?menu=group%3d29%26level%3d1&main=templates/base_template.asp%3fgroup%3d29

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Zenister 0]

same thing..also marketed under the name 'pack boy'

how does using that put "way to much tension" on your closing pin? its simply easier to hold than a pull up cord, you can still put just as much tension on your closing pin with cord.

i know quite a few packers that do use them, the main advatage with pull up cords is they are cheaper and therefor more disposable..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[andy2 0]

ah right, but I see people with these power tools purposely shorten their closing loop because they know they'll be able to get more leverage with this tool. Its amazing how much more leverage you can get. My main question is how bad is doing this (shortening the closing loop to tighten up the main tray)? Is a total possible (I'm sure if it got TOO tight it would be?)?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Zenister 0]

have to get a rigger to chime in with the maximum extraction force for main pins, then get a meter and check... i think you have to really be cranking down on a short loop to get it too tight.. and then the loop will probably break soon...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skycat 0]

Also don't forget that some of us aren't as strong as others. Derek when he closes off my rig says my closing loop is to long, when I close it off it's all I can do to pull the closing loops threw the grommets. (both of us use pull up cords) To get my closing loop as tight as he would like I'd have to get one of these power tools.

Fly it like you stole it!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have a packboy and never use the thing. It takes me far longer to route the thing than it does for me to simply use a pullup cord. On Sigmas they take even longer to route, so all I use is a long piece of spectra line. Got soft hands? Go dig some post holes and break them in.


Chuck

[andy2 0]

its not my hands Im worried about, theyre fine after climbing for a few years. I get pissed off when my pull up cord slips due to sweat/humidity. Oh well, practice makes perfect

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[AggieDave 6]

I prefer using a powertool. Although I don't use it specifically for closing hard to close rigs (I have other tricks for that, and as long as the pull force of the pin is within spec, which I have asked our rigger to check before on certain rigs).

I find it especially handy for packing the Sigma Tandem containers, I've used one long enough now, that I find it MUCH quicker then a pull-up chord.

So I think it really comes down to what you're used to and what you find to work best with you. That's why there's more then one option available.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[councilman24 37]

It's not a given that your rig is too tight just because your using a Power Tool. I use one because it's convenient. But my rig is set up just the way it was and would be if I didn't have one. If any thing it may allow people with less strength to get appropriate tightness on the loop.

Yes they could be used the other way to make a rig too tight but that doesn't me YOU have to.

Make sure, as with all pull up's, you remove it after packing. This one doesn't have a chance of pulling through on deployment. I regular pull up may. And over the years I've found a couple of pull up's still on rigs during pin checks.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 643]

I have used "pack boys" for my last thousand main pack jobs because they reduce inflamation in a weak tendon in my right arm.
Pull force to extract the main pin should be in the 17 to 22 pound range.

[floormonkey 0]

I often close rigs with pull-up cords that others can't close with the pack boys--And I am not that strong. It's a matter of leverage. As far as Sigma's, it's far easier and quicker to just wrap a piece of spectre line around the bridle and use that rather than take the time to use a tool.
I used a tool at Rantoul last year for about a day (avg. about 45 rigs a day) to try it out. It was nice, but took way too much time for my taste. They also cost $15 and pull-up cords are free...

[cssriggers 0]

Quote

I have used "pack boys" for my last thousand main pack jobs because they reduce inflamation in a weak tendon in my right arm.
Pull force to extract the main pin should be in the 17 to 22 pound range.

WOW - that's a lot of force!

I have never, in my experience, seen a closed main container that needed more than 11 to 15 lb of force to pull the pin.

I've defied people to shorten their closing loops as much as possible .. to the limits of their physical strength to close the container.

Pull force on that pin was always less than 15 pounds (usually more like 5 - 11 lb.)

In our experience, most main pins we see in our loft can be pulled with 3 to 11 pounds of force.

Tight closing loops are GOOD. And if you can close your rig under your own power (you should ideally be sweating and cursing) your closing loop is the right length.

Closing tools like the "pack boy" simply give you a better grip, and are easier on your hands than pullup cords. They don't provide a magic leverage or torque solution, unlike "positive leverage devices" used by riggers. (No, don't torque your main container closed.)

Bottom line - if you can close your rig by hand (and this includes using a main closing tool like a pack boy), your PC will be way more than able to pull your pin.

We worry a lot more about loose closing loops ...

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I've defied people to shorten their closing loops as much as possible .. to the limits of their physical strength to close the container.

That might be a fun thing to sit down and try with my rigger one rainy weekend. If we ever do it, I'll let you know the outcome.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[base698 20]

Quote

I have never, in my experience, seen a closed main container that needed more than 11 to 15 lb of force to pull the pin.

I've measured a friend's rig to 24 lbs of force. This was on a fresh pack job and big canopy for the container. Even at that amount of force the PC will pull it out no problem (assuming its made properly and cocked). I think my main is usually under 8 lbs which is a little on the low side. I used to be overly paranoid about my single parachute system and measured it frequently usually getting readings from 12-14 lbs. If you let the canopy sit in the container overnight and reopen/close it its much easier and requires much less force to open, but I seriously doubt you have much to worry about.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I have used "pack boys" for my last thousand main pack jobs because they reduce inflamation in a weak tendon in my right arm.
Pull force to extract the main pin should be in the 17 to 22 pound range.

With a curved pin, I don't think it would take more than 8 - 10 pounds no matter how tight the loop is. 22 lb. is almost the weight of some rigs which means you would be able to pick the rig up by the bridle.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

I have used "pack boys" for my last thousand main pack jobs because they reduce inflammation in a weak tendon in my right arm.
Pull force to extract the main pin should be in the 17 to 22 pound range.

With a curved pin, I don't think it would take more than 8 - 10 pounds no matter how tight the loop is. 22 lb. is almost the weight of some rigs which means you would be able to pick the rig up by the bridle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hint, if you can pick the rig up by the bridle, then the loop is too tight.
Sparky

[mjosparky 4]

You are the one that said it should be 17 to 22 lbs. Not!
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[cssriggers 0]

Just as an FYI -
I had saved a query about this from the Jan 2002 issue of Skydiving magazine for reference, as people frequently ask about main loop length/tightness.

According to TK Donle of RWS, a Vector packed "hard as a brick" - very tight - requires less than 15 lb. That's pull measured on the bridle to untuck the bridle, open the flap and pull the pin. Average = 10 lb, loose but not too loose about 8.

If the bridle is clear and flap is open, just removing the pin took 2.5 - 5 lb; 7.5 lb with the hard as a brick rig.

Also according to TK, a modern pilot chute at terminal exerts about 80 lb of force.

Sandy Reid from RI had similar numbers - 10 to 15 lb. with flaps closed and bridle stowed away.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[andy2 0]

so youre saying it would be impossible to close the main tray and have the PC not be able to pull the pin out (taking into consideration proper routing, etc)? The numbers lend themselves to say that. I would think if 15 pounds was rock tight and you needed >80 pounds to create a PC in tow, it wouldnt humanly be possible. Right?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[hookitt 1]

Quote

80 pounds to create a PC in tow, it wouldnt humanly be possible. Right?

Try as you might, It's not even gonna come close.

-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Just as an FYI -
I had saved a query about this from the Jan 2002 issue of Skydiving magazine for reference, as people frequently ask about main loop length/tightness.

According to TK Donle of RWS, a Vector packed "hard as a brick" - very tight - requires less than 15 lb. That's pull measured on the bridle to untuck the bridle, open the flap and pull the pin. Average = 10 lb, loose but not too loose about 8.

If the bridle is clear and flap is open, just removing the pin took 2.5 - 5 lb; 7.5 lb with the hard as a brick rig.

Also according to TK, a modern pilot chute at terminal exerts about 80 lb of force.

Sandy Reid from RI had similar numbers - 10 to 15 lb. with flaps closed and bridle stowed away.

Thanks for the info. In all the years I have been playing with rigs I have never seen even a reserve take more then 17 lb. properly rigged of course. 22 lb. for a main is silly.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals