Airlocks ?

[BMFin 0]

What are the pros and cons of airlocks ?

[towerrat 0]

I see no cons except minimal pack volume increase.It may also give a false sense of security to some pilots.I love my airlocked canopy so far, although I've only had it a few weeks.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[andy2 0]

Are there any canopies that have airlocks that are directed at a more novice pilot, or are they all very fast elliptical designs?

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[Jimbo 0]

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Are there any canopies that have airlocks that are directed at a more novice pilot, or are they all very fast elliptical designs?

The Lotus from Big Air Sportz is an entry level canopy.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[andy2 0]

do you really think an elliptical canopy is appropriate for someone with 20 jumps

I see multiple problems that come to the table for someone who doesn't have body position nailed down perfectly and wants to jump an elliptical canopy...

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Jimbo 0]

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do you really think an elliptical canopy is appropriate for someone with 20 jumps

What would you say if I told you that the Navigator you probably used at some point in your AFF training was an elliptical canopy? Honestly, I don't think any of the major manufacturers are producing 'square' canopies anymore, they all seem to have some degree of taper.

Back to the subject at hand, yes, I think in this case that the Lotus is a fine canopy for a beginning pilot. Brian Germain (the owner of BAS and designer of the Lotus), in my experience, is fairly conservative. If he says that the Lotus " is a versatile airfoil that will please both conservative experienced skydivers, and newer jumpers looking for a safe canopy. ", then yes, I think this is an appropriate canopy for someone with 20 jumps.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[BMFin 0]

If there are not really any cons with airlocks ? What would be the pros then ?

Why arent all canopies made with airlocks ?

[skymedic 0]

increased cost of production is one...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[MrHixxx 0]

If you are jumping a lighter wingloading (big canopy) you are a little more apt to be dragged in high winds, because they are harder to deflate after landing. However, in choppy winds, you have an airfoil that is a less prone to distortion.

I think the airlocks might have a little less drag from the inlets once the canopy is pressurized too. So, they perform a bit better. That is a good question for Brian G.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[ThighMan 5]

I love my Samurai. I started with a 150 (at 460 jumps) and moved down to a 136 (880 jumps). The only "REALLY" bad thing about them is on windy days, the dang thing stays inflated. It looks like a air mattress and can be a little tricky getting it under control. But, once done, I love it. Thanks Brian for the great canopy.

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[ChileRelleno 0]

I've demo'd the Lotus and I liked it alot, I played with around with a 1:2:1 WL and found it to be very versatile. Brian actually thought I should have been loading higher than that and I only had about 200 jumps at the time. Talked about the canopy one on one with Brian G., it is a semi-elliptical not fully-elliptcal canopy as is the Samauri. At the lower end of the wing loading it is a stable, fairly forgiving canopy that with good canopy control training and skills would be appropriate for a conservative low time jumper say with 50+ jumps. IMO.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[rhino 0]

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I don't think any of the major manufacturers are producing 'square' canopies anymore, they all seem to have some degree of taper.

The Triathlon is one.. Great canopy. Not elliptical. I would recommend it ahead of ANY canopy for a first time canopy and for someones first 150 jumps.

Rhino

[SkydiverRick 0]

One con would be watching your partially inflated canopy floating away after a cut-away. I love my Vengeance however.

never pull low......unless you are

[johnny1488 1]

Since the "dam" for the airlocks slightly restricts (i think) the inlet of air also would that detract from the canopies cell pressure? I mean I know it would hold air in but could it also hold some air out? One example might be deep braked flight.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[PhreeZone 20]

Try and stall an airlocked canopy. It will get SUPER mussy and then it will start to stall. I'm yet to find any other canopy that will get as mushy as an airlocked one can get. Once the canopy get pressurized as long as its still moving forward its enough to keep the cells from deflating.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[gus 1]

I tried to follow down a chopped Vengeance over the weekend but it was coming down really slowly because of the airlocks.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[MattM 0]

We had a 150 Vengeance chopped this weekend... it deflated just like any other canopy.

I see it is a bitch though to carry when you just got down from landing. The trick I learned to get the cells to deflate is to pull all the cells to the side like you are about to pro pack it.

Matt

[cssriggers 0]

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Why arent all canopies made with airlocks ?

Patent laws.

As I understand it, Brian patented his airlocks, and this gives him the sole right to make, use or sell the idea (i.e. the PD Vengeance.)

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[billvon 3,086]

>If there are not really any cons with airlocks ? What would be the
>pros then ?

Slightly more stable in turbulence, better cross bracing of the nose leading to a more rigid airfoil.

>Why arent all canopies made with airlocks ?

Cost, complexity, pack volume.

[billvon 3,086]

>Patent laws.

The airlock was patented in 1973 by Domina Jalbert. The patent is for:

"An aerial device in the form of a wing having upper and lower flexible layers and a leading edge and a trailing edge, a wall of the wing having an opening facing outward from the bottom or a side of the wing forming an inlet for flow of pressurized air into the wing, and a normally open flexible valve for the opening closeable by the air pressure to seal the opening when pressurized air is admitted to the wing."

The patent has since expired.

[apoil 0]

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If there are not really any cons with airlocks ? What would be the pros then ?

Why arent all canopies made with airlocks ?

There are cons. They are a pain in the ass to deal with after landing.
If you hate wrestling with your canopy after landing in moderately high winds, because the nose is filling up with air and you can't grab it and collapse it so easily, you will have the same problem with airlocks even in lighter winds. Experienced airlock flyers have ways to deal with it, but getting the air out after landing and while packing can be a pain.

not all canopies are made with airlocks because most manufacturers are unconvinced of the benefits versus the increased costs of production.

For the most part, canopies don't just suddently collapse in turbulence, and you can get badly hurt under an airlocked canopy in unpredictable wind conditions (John Mathews)

I wouldn't fly a Samurai just for the airlocks, I'd fly it because of its overall handling characteristics. The airlocks would then be a bonus if I believed them to be of benefit.

[sdctlc 0]

A couple of things here I thought were interesting regarding the airlocks. I jump a Samurai and have had no more trouble with winds compared with my previously non airlocked canopy's. There may be a couple of very easy tricks to it that are unique to the airlocked canopy like getting the canopy on its topskin with winds once in the ground, but in general i have not found it to be any more difficult to deal with after landing. There is no difference when packing. Once the canopy is over your shoulder, airlocked or not, the nose is generally not "open" on any canopy so the air was not going out the front anyway. To me it packs the same. If there is a lot of air any canopy I will lay it on its side and "roll" across it to get the air out, the airlocks dont seem to hinder this process either.

Regardig preceved benifit and purchase based on overall characteristics that is 100% correct. My precption is that my Samurai flys very very stable in a little chop compared to other canopy's. Will the airlocks prevent a colapse, no if the conditions are right any canopy will collapse but it feels more solid in some tricky winds. Also it seems to have a great deal of slow speed lift, partially from the airlocks I am sure but also partially from the airfoil design. Basically I like the way it flys and opens.

The airlocks seem to have a few advantages in my eyes but a majority of the flight characteristics are not soley based on the airlocks, they cant be since they are just a part of the design. I bought the canopy becuse of the way it flew. Along with how it flys, the fact that Brian knows his stuff and is was more then happy to engage in a few lengthy but very enjoyable conversations about canopy's (his and others) on the phone put me over the hump in sending him a order. I have a signature series and the service and turn around was awesome, thanks Bri!

Scott C.

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There are cons. They are a pain in the ass to deal with after landing.
If you hate wrestling with your canopy after landing in moderately high winds, because the nose is filling up with air and you can't grab it and collapse it so easily, you will have the same problem with airlocks even in lighter winds. Experienced airlock flyers have ways to deal with it, but getting the air out after landing and while packing can be a pain.



For the most part, canopies don't just suddently collapse in turbulence, and you can get badly hurt under an airlocked canopy in unpredictable wind conditions (John Mathews)

I wouldn't fly a Samurai just for the airlocks, I'd fly it because of its overall handling characteristics. The airlocks would then be a bonus if I believed them to be of benefit.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[DaMan 0]

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... Experienced airlock flyers have ways to deal with it, but getting the air out after landing and while packing can be a pain.

I've had no problem keeping my Samurai under control - once down, just grab a couple extra inches of line in the fronts as you begin to coil the lines; it keeps the nose "driving" into the ground.

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For the most part, canopies don't just suddenly collapse in turbulence, and you can get badly hurt under an airlocked canopy in unpredictable wind conditions (John Mathews)

I think you found the biggest con in airlocks - many pilots use the airlocks as a replacement for good judgment in poor weather conditions. All things considered, do I feel safer with them: yes - do I think it eliminates the risk of a collapse: no.

By the way - I think I do a fair job of keeping up with you packing my Samurai (I seem to recall finishing before you a couple of months back )

Z-Flock 8
Discotec Rodriguez

Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility.

[Samurai136 0]

They are not hard to pack. I know a packer who has packed two new Samurai faster than most people pack a non-airlocked canopy. The pack jobs opened soft and on heading.
The Samurai/ Lotus have great control in slow flight. As long as you have altitude and airspeed you can flight the canopy to a dead stop and still have a wing over your head. I've always prefered the idea of having a wing over my head that wants to fly.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[riddler 0]

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The airlock was patented in 1973 by Domina Jalbert.

Wow - I've heard Brian say to me directly that he invented the airlock. That would be an interesting debate that I don't think I would want to participate in. Interesting that the guy that invented the ram-air also patented this concept.

As far as the Lotus, the largest size made is the 190. If a student with 20 jumps loads a 190 at a low enough WL to meet their skill level, I would have no problem suggesting a Lotus - although I would also suggest they ask more experienced instructors for several opinions. I should note that I typically suggest a Tri or a Spectre for new jumpers, but if they wanted a Lotus, I would say it's a great canopy. I'm not a great lander, but I've tried both a 190 and 150 Lotus, and they are the only canopies I stood up on the first jump. IMO, they open, land and handle better than my triathalon or any Spectre I've flown - they are harder to pack than a tri, however. Yes, it is a semi-elliptical canopy (as are most "square" canopies today, but in my (pretty much worthless) opinion, they are just as safe as any 7-cell, and maybe safer.