FF3 Sony HC5 [VERSUS] Cookie MXV Sony TG1

[boomslang 0]

I am looking into two different setups for freeflying fun jump videos. They both have their pros and cons but I would still like your opinions. Just a note - I have done massive amounts of research here on the Dropzone.com forums and also on Google, and I still need some help deciding...


The 2K Composites FF3 with cutaway system and Sony HC5 (possibly the HC9, depending on the EIS vs OIS issue):

Pros:
- The FF3 is a well-built, comfortable helmet with a cutaway system and a snag resistant camera cover. Snag resistance is very important to me.
- The camera is easily accessible in the plane and is compatible with a Cameye II.
- The HC5 video quality is very good, but I am not clear as to how the EIS works in freefall with this specific camera (as say versus the TG1, and even the newer Sony HC9 with OIS - which is not good for sitfly from what I've read).
- HC5 is around $450 like-new versus 7-800$ for the TG1
- Large FOV wide angle lenses will not show the helmet in view.

Cons:
- Heavier (1lb 5oz), wider, bulkier.
- More potential for riser strikes versus the Sony TG1 with Cookie blackbox because of the width of the camera. However, I believe it is more snag resistant than the Cookie Composites TG1 Blackbox.
- The custom helmet is expensive (around $500) but I am not worried about the cost at the moment.
- 4-6 week wait time


Cookie Composites MXV with cutaway system and Sony HDR-TG1 with Cookie Blackbox:

Pros:
- Light (10 oz), and only 2" wide. The low weight will be somewhat easier on my neck versus the HC5 in case of a hard opening.
- Also a well-built, comfortable helmet with a fine cutaway system. Although I am capable of personally designing a cover for the TG1 Blackbox, it is more snag prone when it comes stock.
- The TG1 is compatible with the Hypeye D Pro.
- The TG1 captures excellent video quality with enough light and EIS (1/5" CMOS)
- I personally think the smaller profile looks cool, but then again, they both look pretty cool.
- The MXV helmet is priced lower than the FF3, $370 versus $530 respectively. Though, the cost of the cameras makes the FF3 a less expensive setup.
- Almost no wait time.

Cons:
- More potential for snags versus the FF3 with the Sony HC5.
- 1/5" CMOS captures "decent" footage on sunset loads (though I do not know how much a 1/3" CMOS will make a difference - HC5). I have tested the TG1 in freefall on a sunset load and the quality is alright.
- The Liquid 3 lens shows the helmet in the video unless the mount is moved forward a considerable amount. A Liquid 5 lens would get rid of the helmet but would not provide as much FOV (field of view).
- The AVCHD format can be troublesome to some users.


If you have anything else to add, any opinions, anything at all - it is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time and input!

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jellyside down. A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision.

[dragon2 2]

I'm a big hc5 fan.

HC5 is compatible with both cameye and hypeeye pro, and the EIS is the best for skydiving: you can turn it off

I'm also a topmount fan. Topmount all the way, it is too wide for sidemount. Topmount is way better for your neck and for your equipment. Sidemount is nice to have for AFF and other inside FS video, for everything else topmount works too if not better.

Also you want a HD quality lens an on HD camera, a small lens like liquid is a waste of resolution might as well buy a pc1000 or something... A HD lens is bigger than is good for sidemounting.

So for most videograhers my advice would be to get a hc5, hd lens and a good topmount helmet with cutaway, and with option for stills later if you think you'll want to jump stills at a future date.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Butters 0]

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So for most videograhers my advice would be to get a hc5, hd lens and a good topmount helmet with cutaway, and with option for stills later if you think you'll want to jump stills at a future date.

Sounds like good advice. I got a Sony HDR-HC9.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[boomslang 0]

The top mount looks like it would be quite a bit more snag prone than the FF3. What are the downsides to top mounts? You must remember that you have 4+ inches of extra *and very expensive* material above your head, which has to use up some of your attention while exiting the plane. I guess it basically comes down to personal preference.

Do you think the HC series is practical as a side mount in the FF3? I know that sky-pimp has made helmets (my friend has one that has a right-sided HC series mount) that accommodate the HC series camcorders. If you don't think it is practical, then why not? I am just curious and am looking for answers.

Right now, the FF3 with the HC5 left side mounted looks like the best choice for me, even though it is a little cumbersome. I have been told by my friend, who owns the sky-pimp HC series side mounted helmet, that he does not notice a significant difference in the weight while he is in freefall. The only thing I would be worried about with the FF3 is riser strikes; but with the FF3, the risers should glance off of the helmet better than with the TG1 Blackbox. I would also feel safer with the FF3 in terms of line snags, just because of the design.

Does anyone have any pictures of a FF3 HC series from the back and looking at the mount from the side? I have seen this picture of the front:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=94320;

Does this helmet seem practical to you? Why/why not? The camera weighs about 1.5 pounds, and I am a strong guy, so I am not worried too much about the weight.

I am going on and on, and I could do it all day... what to do... what to do.

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jellyside down. A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision.

[beowulf 1]

I have the FF3 with an HC5. I now have about 300 jumps with it. I previously had the FF2 with HC20. The only time I really noticed the difference in weight and size was the initial few jumps. After that I have never really noticed the difference. I have never had a any riser strikes so far. Nearly all of my jumps have been vFS 4 way video or freefly fun jumps. I don't use a ring sight.

[Butters 0]

Take the following with a grain of salt ...

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What are the downsides to top mounts?

I have to be aware standing up, moving around, and exiting the plane and can't have a still and video camera at the same time. Also, it acts like a rudder ...

Quote

Do you think the HC series is practical as a side mount in the FF3? If you don't think it is practical, then why not?

No. The Sony HDR-HC5/7/9 are wide and I believe they would be prone to riser strikes when side-mounted.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

Quote

I have the FF3 with an HC5. I now have about 300 jumps with it. I previously had the FF2 with HC20. The only time I really noticed the difference in weight and size was the initial few jumps. After that I have never really noticed the difference. I have never had a any riser strikes so far. Nearly all of my jumps have been vFS 4 way video or freefly fun jumps. I don't use a ring sight.

And this is why you should take my opinion with a grain of salt ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[boomslang 0]

LOL ! Thank you for the advice guys. I really consider everything that you say. This information is very helpful to me!

Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jellyside down. A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision.

[beowulf 1]

No matter what helmet you use I think the HC5 is the best camera for freeflying. I would prefer a solid state camera like the CX7 or CX12 if they didn't have OIS.

[The111 1]

Top mount.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[MotherGoose 0]

I too am intently reading and following this great debate about the HC5 sidemount. I must say that The111's comments are not very convincing. Simply stating your preference is not much of a help (with all due respect). I'd ask for your reasons, but I've read the same rhetoric in other threads about riser strikes. I am leaning back towards the FF3 sidemounted HC5 setup. Thanks to all for the valuable feedback !

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[The111 1]

Quote

I too am intently reading and following this great debate about the HC5 sidemount. I must say that The111's comments are not very convincing. Simply stating your preference is not much of a help (with all due respect). I'd ask for your reasons, but I've read the same rhetoric in other threads about riser strikes. I am leaning back towards the FF3 sidemounted HC5 setup. Thanks to all for the valuable feedback !

Saskia already mentioned the only important reasons. I was simply adding my vote. Go find any professional cameraman with more than 10,000 jumps and see if he is side mounting. The people who have been doing this for 30+ years know what's up.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[JSE 1]

Quote

Go find any professional cameraman with more than 10,000 jumps and see if he is side mounting. The people who have been doing this for 30+ years know what's up.

Not everyone is, or is trying to be, a professional cameraman. The OP is interested in freefly fun jump videos. I'm not convinced that a top mount is necessarily better for that.

[MotherGoose 0]

Please excuse my lack of experience. You point out the fact that professional vid-dudes use XYZ so ABC must be useless and I think this is unfair and highly irrelevant to lowly souls such as myself. I am looking at flying vid at a small dz operation in canada, not a jump factory in the US. I need a decent closeup 30-60sec capture of some thrill seekers first skydive so they can show their friends that they are hardcore. Im looking to do this with an HC5 and an inexpensive and relatively safe helmet. At this point, the setup the pros use is no more relevant to me than learning about filming freefall in IMAX. Its simply not important. For the bunch of us on here with 500+ skydives that have been afforded the opportunity to make some extra jump money through vid, we're just looking for some entry-level guidance so that when we spend up to $2000 on a setup, we don't regret it. I thought that was what these forums were about ?

** yes, $2000 is a lot of money for some of us.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[DSE 5]

Top mount is better for your neck/back on deployment. No reason for discussion there.
The111 is one of the more successful camera flyers out there, BTW...I'd listen.
Top mounts offer more helmet options, too.
Topmounts offer a better balance option which aids in flying, and in deployment.
Riser strikes are by far more common in side mounts, but that doesn't mean you'll always have em'. They do happen. More with some guys than others. The size of your camera, size of your head, size of your camera box all are factors. Sidemounts also somewhat limit your available camera options too. Side mounts are generally cheaper. Side mounts are arguably better for those mostly interested in freeflying. Topmounts are better for competition, tandem. Commercial work, topmount is the ONLY way to fly, IMO.

Or, just take Matt's comment.
"Top mount"

=[edited to add...2K isn't much for a good helmet. Matt's helmet for instance, would run you around 3K for the helmet alone, then you start adding mounts, nuts, bolts, screws, HypEye, etc. Yeah...just the fibreglass and fit would run you 3K.

[MotherGoose 0]

Well I hope you know that I appreciate everyones perspective. If I had more money and that pesky CDN dollar was not going for a shit, I would definitely be singing a different tune. Being in Canada too . . . we're exposed exlusively to the setups of those around us and we have to rely on pictures to make expensive decisions. I look forward to a Florida road trip this winter to get to finally try out some of these other options. Thanks to all for your feedback, don't stop.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[The111 1]

Quote

Quote

Go find any professional cameraman with more than 10,000 jumps and see if he is side mounting. The people who have been doing this for 30+ years know what's up.

Not everyone is, or is trying to be, a professional cameraman. The OP is interested in freefly fun jump videos. I'm not convinced that a top mount is necessarily better for that.

You don't have to want to be a pro, to recognize that they know their shit.

The point I was trying to make is that with 10,000 camera jumps under their belt, they know the importance of protecting their neck from damage. Camera flying is damaging to your neck however you do it, but top-mounting minimizes that damage in a number of ways, as Saskia pointed out already.

In short, top mount is:

1) safer
2) easier on your neck
3) more versatile
4) better from a photographic standpoint except maybe for extreme close-up "inside" freeflying
5) more expensive.

I care more about my safety and my neck than my wallet.

If you get a sidemount and stick with this for more than a few years, chance are you'll regret not getting the FTP (or other topmount) at the beginning. When cameras change, and your goals change, the FTP will be ready for it. An FFwhatever won't be.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[dragon2 2]

Last month of our season we had 2 cameramen lose their cameras due to riser strike (pc106/pc109, sidemounts do not get any tinier than that). The guy with a few thousand jumps just lost his camera, the guy with a few hundred camera jumps could've lost way more: after a malfunction he pulled his reserve and the reserve knocked off his camera and SHEARED OFF SOME LINES on what was left of the sidemount Luckily for cameraguy he jumps a 5cell Swift and it landed him ok-ish even minus a few lines. He is a big tough guy but his neck was hurting bad for few weeks. The reserve earned itself a reline

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pilotdave 0]

What kind of mount did he have? Every time I see an exposed L-bracket, I wonder if it could cut lines. Did he have any kind of box?

Sidemounts have their advantages and disadvantages. I went with sidemount, but I could only find one helmet that really made any effort to minimize the snag hazard and that was the FF2. After seeing a couple FF3s, I don't think I'd buy one. Not because of the width but because they removed some nice features and didn't fix some of the issues I have with the FF2.

My next helmet will be a rear entry top mount like a vapor or ftp... for two reasons. Versatility and tighter fit. I can't get my FF2 as tight as I'd like (I'm guessing that the hole in the cutaway system webbing has stretched a little) so I think it moves on my head too much. It's far from loose, but I think it contributes to some camera shake. And of course my video camera choices are limited with the FF2. But I haven't wanted to upgrade yet, so it hasn't held me back at all.

I think a well made, snag resistant sidemount is just fine for it's intended purpose. I'm not 100% convinced that top mounts are just simply safer. They are safer in some ways, but not all ways. They have their disadvantages and advantages just like a sidemount. In a hard opening, I don't know if I'd want my PC1000 sitting 8 inches over my head instead of right next to my face. I'm guessing there's a much higher chance for whiplash when the helmet is raised up. And if your head happens to be cocked to the side a little, you'll probably get a much worse side load on your neck with a top mount. Sure, if you hold your head perfectly straight, the top mount may be better (I think front-mounted stills undoes that advantage), but I doubt I could hold my head perfectly straight throughout a very hard opening. For soft openings, a light side mount camera doesn't put much strain on the neck at all.

Dave

[Bowen 0]

Pros:
- "The MXV helmet is priced lower than the FF3, $370 versus $530 respectively. Though, the cost of the cameras makes the FF3 a less expensive setup."

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I am a dealer for 2k and as of right this minute the FF3 at full price will run you 456.00 shipped, if dealing directly through 2K. Some dealers sell them for less...

That comes complete with a cutaway, "D-box" or claim shell and a paint job. Shipped.

I just priced a MXV with a cutaway, paint job and shipping and it will run you 470 shipped.

Now the FF3 is complete where as the MXV needs extra mounting sources like a black box.

The TGI black box runs 199.00

so now your Cookie set up cost you 670.00 USD

For that price come see me for a top mount set up.



As far as weight, they are both in the same league. the MXV is 14 oz and the FF3 is just over a pound.

add the black box and mounting hardware to the MVX and they both will weight the same i'm sure

I will have to agree with the wait time. the FF3 will take a little longer to get to you. it depends on how backed up with orders they get. 4 or 5 weeks was the norm a few weeks ago. usually it takes about 3-4 but I keep sending them multiple orders at a time so longer wait times happen.


-Bowen

Retired Tunnel Instructor, Sky/Tunnel Coach

Former dealer for 2k Composites, Skysystems, Alti-2, Wings

[dragon2 2]

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What kind of mount did he have? Every time I see an exposed L-bracket, I wonder if it could cut lines. Did he have any kind of box?

He had a U-bracket with velcro over the top and the camera was in a camera condom, no box.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Unparagoned 0]

I have a FF3 with HC3. The quality is great, but any lens will stick out of the housing/case. I do get riser stikes very often, which are a little anoying.

[MotherGoose 0]

Interesting . . . often enough or hard enough to warn against such a purchase ?

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[Bowen 0]

I've only had one riser slap out of 100 jumps. but that was because of poor body position during deployment. how often are you getting slapped? anyone else in the same boat?


-Bowen

Retired Tunnel Instructor, Sky/Tunnel Coach

Former dealer for 2k Composites, Skysystems, Alti-2, Wings

[Unparagoned 0]

Quote

Interesting . . . often enough or hard enough to warn against such a purchase ?

Often, never been hit hard. I have my chest strap really tight, so that may play a part in why I keep on feeling the risers hit the helmet. It's a bit more anoying than I expected but it doesn't seem like a serious problem.