ozzy13 0 #1 October 28, 2008 I was looking into getting one and was wondering what people use and what they like about them Also where to go to get a good deal on one Thanks for the helpNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 October 28, 2008 Save your money and get a PC.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #3 October 28, 2008 Well Im talking to you right lol So I have one of them. I need one to do video at the DZ Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 October 28, 2008 Get a PC for the DZ too. For a decent board to do titles, effects, etc you are looking at 2-300, WAY more then that if you want to get a board that does HD or Digital only signal. Save the cash and get a PC and load Vegas on it, the results will be way better for the end product and it opens you creatively in ways that a board never would let you. I used a cheap Analog board for years and now that I've used a PC for DZ videos I am kicking myself for wasting all that time on sub-par products.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #5 October 28, 2008 What about time? Doesn't it take you longer on a pc. I know it does for me!!!!!!!! specially when it comes to burning!Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 October 28, 2008 Depends on your camera - tape based capture at real speed, memory based ones capture lots faster then a tape one. Capture is 3.5-4 minutes, editing is another 2. During this time the stills are burning to CD and I'm doing the stuff for the next jump. Render and burn to DVD takes 3-5 minutes and then the stuff to email them a video takes another 2-3. End result is a DVD with custom titles, junk frames deleted, crossfades that look good, audio that cuts and fades on time and a digitized video emailed to them to share - Total time invested is only 3-5 minutes more then when I was using an old board and external DVD burner that took 5 minutes to finalize a disk, if I was using memory based it would be faster even with the render and burn time considered. It also lets me capture HD if I wanted to take advantage of the higher quality. The end product is light years beyond the old analog board outputs and that is what customers deserve when they are paying almost $100 for a video.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #7 October 29, 2008 QuoteWhat about time? Doesn't it take you longer on a pc. I know it does for me!!!!!!!! specially when it comes to burning! You are right. Using a PC will always take longer than an analog board, unless you are willing to give your customer a video that you haven't seen yourself in real time. Yes you can make a better product with a computer. But it takes me 7 minutes to produce a 7 minute video using my analog board (I don't hang around for the finalization of the disk). Using a computer will take that long, PLUS whatever time you take to capture and edit. No way around it unless you are willing to give your customer something you haven't seen. Again, you CAN make a better video with a NLE system (I have also seen worse videos, but that is the editor's fault). However, prices paid to videots haven't gone up in real terms at all. So you have to decide whether you are willing to make less money to make a better product. I can see both arguments, but in the end that's gotta be your call. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #8 October 29, 2008 Ok back to the OP does any have suggestions on mixers that are reasonable in price Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #9 October 29, 2008 QuoteDepends on your camera -. I use a PC1000Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #10 October 29, 2008 QuoteOk back to the OP does any have suggestions on mixers that are reasonable in price Unfortunately, any reasonably priced analog mixer is definitely old-school discontinued product. I don't know who other than freefall videographers who still use them. Most DZs I have seen that use analog boards use either Panasonic or Videonics mixers. In Panasonic, you have a few models from their semi-pro and pro lines. All available on the used market (many of them from wedding videographers that have long since moved on to NLE systems). Search e-bay for WJ-AVE5 and WJ-AVE7 (consumer models) or WJ-MX10, WJ-MX12, or WJ-MX30 (Pro models). All include a basic audio mixer. I use the MX-12, but the consumer models have a couple of features that are nice such as effects (freeze-frame) on both busses. Some people still use the Videonics MX-4 (I think) for video mixing. But you will still need a separate audio mixer with this. For either brand you will also need a titler. There the videonics titler is decent (TM2000 or TM3000). The Panasonic titlers that plug into their mixers that I have seen are all total crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #11 October 29, 2008 Quote Quote What about time? Doesn't it take you longer on a pc. I know it does for me!!!!!!!! specially when it comes to burning! You are right. Using a PC will always take longer than an analog board, unless you are willing to give your customer a video that you haven't seen yourself in real time. Yes you can make a better product with a computer. . I disagree with your thinking here, Phil. Obviously, I'm a digital guy. But you can't make an analog video in 7 mins and consider that you're "seeing it all in real-time" and claim it's the same or even equal product. I don't need to see the intro video in real-time, I shot, edited, and finished it. I've seen it 1000 times if I've seen it once. I don't need to see the ending of the video, I've seen that 1000 times too. They're bookends. I only need to see the start and finish of each scene/clip/event on the timeline. What happened in between is what happened and no amount of editing can change that sequence. I can see those points visually, and hear them audibly. I don't need to play through the entire freefall, I know what happened there. What I *can* do, also not needing to see in real-time, is repeat the exit and deployment in slow motion immediately after they happen in the file. And still not need to see it in real-time. Additionally, I can watch/edit at 3X all the time, and it's identical to seeing/hearing it in real-time. Any faster than 3X, I can't understand the words being said, but I can still see/stop on a frame for purposes of editing. Including render time and menus for a pro-quality DVD, I can match and beat an analog system for creation time, and still give the student a personalized DVD with their name in the video titles, name in the DVD menu, and a *real* menu vs the ridiculous, ugly file selection that most set-top DVD burners offer when used with an analog board. Either way, it's a fairly moot point over the next year or two, because: A-customers are beginning to demand wide-screen at the least, and many analog boards can't process a 1:212 aspect image. B-Customers are slowly beginning to demand, and will more rapidly demand HD acquisition/delivery. HD displays are flying off the shelves, even in times of economic pain. C-No one is offering affordable analog boards any longer. Even Edirol has stopped their SD boards, and the HD-capable consoles are prohibitively expensive, as are the low-end GrassValley consoles. The primary reason we use Sony Vegas at our DZ, is that Vegas allows capture, editing, rendering simultaneously on the same machine. It's quite common that we're capturing from SD tape, Xferring from MSPD (memory stick) while editing in one or two instances, and rendering in a third or fourth instance of the application on the same machine. If you don't understand the Vegas workflow, you can't possibly know how fast this process can be. No other NLE will allow you to run multiple instances of the application simultaneously, and until you've experienced it, it's like trying to explain Playboy to a monk. Using DVD Architect and multiple burners, you can be outputting as many DVDs as you have burners, at the same time. No way, no how, can an analog system compete with that. Imagine capturing over 1000 videos in a week, outputting roughly 50 awards videos, at least 2 dozen television broadcast mixes complete with T/C cues, bars/tones, and archiving from say....30 different camera models and roughly 5 different formats....Yet that's what Vegas allowed and made possible during Nationals. On cheap-ass, store-bought, low-grade computers. Ozzy, I'd seriously consider what most folks are saying about NLE systems. Otherwise, PM me. I might know where you can pick up an old, dirty analog board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinjin 0 #12 October 29, 2008 I dont know about all that NLE crazy talk, but i liked the playboy sexy talk. dont let life pass you by Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #13 October 29, 2008 Quote Quote Quote What about time? Doesn't it take you longer on a pc. I know it does for me!!!!!!!! specially when it comes to burning! You are right. Using a PC will always take longer than an analog board, unless you are willing to give your customer a video that you haven't seen yourself in real time. Yes you can make a better product with a computer. . , it's like trying to explain Playboy to a monk. . I guess I am a monk BUT I do like playboy Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #14 June 1, 2009 Quote The primary reason we use Sony Vegas at our DZ, is that Vegas allows capture, editing, rendering simultaneously on the same machine. It's quite common that we're capturing from SD tape, Xferring from MSPD (memory stick) while editing in one or two instances, and rendering in a third or fourth instance of the application on the same machine. If you don't understand the Vegas workflow,... Well then, how would you suggest an old school analog guy go about get'n reeducated? We're still using PC9s, Linear editing, and believe it or not 35mm film.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #15 June 1, 2009 Depends on how fast you want to be, nothing wrong with a PC 9. You could get a good used G4 or G5 mac tower and set it up with a templet of canned shots (Leader,take off, in air, credits etc) and be pretty damn fast and save time shooting only the interviews and jump, landing, import and minor edits and export to DVD and make a way better product in a fast timeframe. Or you could buy all new shit and be even faster and have a lot more out of pocket. Regardless of what way you go start by reading all the threads about the new cameras and vegas editing, DSE has posted some sample videos. There is a lot of info on here and reading it will first confuse you, but then you'll understand what the new kids are doing these days.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #16 June 1, 2009 O M G! 35MM film ,3 yrs. ago i gave a whole bag of that stuff to a buddy that don't skydive along with a canon A2E and vertical grip. He was excited to get it.I was just happy to give it to him. In all seriousness, i'm shocked anyone is still using 35mm film camera's. I figured everyone was on the band wagon by now. A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #17 June 1, 2009 you can watch the Tandem Video Make Easy video... you could bring out me or one of my guys for a weekend/weekday to train you... you can spend a fair amount of time and get a lot of knowledge in this forum... You can hire a 14 year old computer geek. They know everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #18 June 2, 2009 Quote In all seriousness, i'm shocked anyone is still using 35mm film camera's. I figured everyone was on the band wagon by now. I'm either a Luddite, lazy. or cheep. Well, maybe all of the above. But then I only work 60 to 80 hrs a week.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #19 June 2, 2009 Quote you can watch the Tandem Video Make Easy video... You can hire a 14 year old computer geek. They know everything. $80 for that video. Anyone have a copy I can borrow? I have a 7 year old who likes computers. Maybe I can hold out for another 7 years?Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #20 June 2, 2009 Quote $80 for that video. Anyone have a copy I can borrow? I have a 7 year old who likes computers. Maybe I can hold out for another 7 years? heck... the 7 year old can probably figure it out... the question is can he teach you... Non-linear editing really isn't as hard as you'd think... if you can figure out posting on dz.com then you can figure out how to use vegas...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #21 June 2, 2009 Quote Quote $80 for that video. Anyone have a copy I can borrow? I have a 7 year old who likes computers. Maybe I can hold out for another 7 years? heck... the 7 year old can probably figure it out... the question is can he teach you... Non-linear editing really isn't as hard as you'd think... if you can figure out posting on dz.com then you can figure out how to use vegas... Oh, I know that I could learn. I'm fairly savoy, I maintain my web site, etc. It's more of a time and motivation issue.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #22 June 2, 2009 In one hour, I can have *anyone* be fairly proficient in Sony Vegas. Premiere and FCP take a little longer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #23 June 2, 2009 Quote In one hour, I can have *anyone* be fairly proficient in Sony Vegas. Premiere and FCP take a little longer. I'll take that hour next time you're back East. We'll really put that claim to a test.HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #24 June 2, 2009 Quote Quote In one hour, I can have *anyone* be fairly proficient in Sony Vegas. Premiere and FCP take a little longer. I'll take that hour next time you're back East. We'll really put that claim to a test.HW **this offer does not apply to crusty old farts, ancient skydivers, macolytes. Void where prohibited, taxes and surcharges may apply. See your local video geek for more restrictions and details.**' Just kidding Howard. You know you'll get it quickly. happy to teach ya! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jethers203 0 #25 June 26, 2009 Reading the points on NLE has kind of opened my eyes too. I have been thinking whether or not to buy a new dvd hdd recorder for $300-500 for the DZ. What would you recommend instead for NLE? What computer / laptop? Any specific one? What does the Sony Vegas software run? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
