Settingsquestions - very specific

[lilchief 1]

I'm posting to get feedback on my choice of settings and maybe some answers regarding use of auto/manual focus.

I got my EOS350D i January and i've plowed through the manual. I've been used to SLR since Jr.high when I took photo classes. So I started with manual settings right away. I've spent the last half of the winter getting to know my 350D, but there's something that I miss. On my old Konica XT, the lenses have these interval markers on the lens that shows you how long your focus length will be. That don't exits on my lens(standard 18-55mm), and I can't find any tables showing me. Does anyone posses a table, or clue on how far the focus length is with blender 4.0 and 4.5?

Second questions: What do you think about these settings:

ISO: 100
focal length: 24-26mm
shutterspeed:
1/1000 on the ground when canopies land
1/1250 in freefall
burstmode
white balance "daylight"
AI focus
Metering mode: evaluating
C.Fn:
Long exp. noise reduction: on
AF assist beam emits
E-TTL II - Evaluative
shutter curtain sync: 1st

those are the ones I think are the relevant ones

I've had some photos being out of focus even though the previous pic is in focus. I use only the center focus point.

tips - pointer - advice are welcome
ps: I did a search but it didn't help

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[PhreeZone 20]

Is there a reason you are shooting for such high apatures? Shooting at that high of a shutter speed really forces the apature open and will limit your depth of field a lot. I'd be surprized if you are getting the entire tandem in focus at 4.0. By my math at the f4 settings you have a total focal plane of 4 feet in depth if you set the focus point at 5 feet.

Depth of field
Near limit 4.17 ft
Far limit 6.23 ft
Total 2.06 ft
Hyperfocal is at 24.9 feet at 24mm.


Are you shooting for a nice boken on the photos?

Take a look at some of the online DOF calculators to figure out what you are wanting to know. http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html The focus Length changes based on the sensor size in the camera, that is why it is not on the EFS lenses anymore.

Personally to keep the background mostly sharp I shoot to keep the apature around f11. This gives me a really large DOF to work with to keep as much of the shot in focus as possible. I'd shoot for more around 1/400-1/640 myself. Also 24/26mm is really long for student work, I like my 14mm for that since you can get up and close with it. For RW I shoot 18mm and freefly is 14mm so I can remain close and not have to fly 20 feet back. If those distances are where you like to fly then there is no issue but you really need to center everything nicely at a longer distance.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pilotdave 0]

A lot of people use lower shutter speeds, but I find that I need 1/800 or so to consistently get sharp pics. A usually use ISO 400 to get a smaller aperture (kit lens is least sharp when wide open). A smaller aperture will increase your depth of field so you won't get nearly as many out of focus shots.

24-26mm is pretty narrow, depending on what you're shooting. Remember that you have to multiply your focal length by 1.6 for the 35mm film equivalent. 18mm is a lot narrower on this camera than it was on your film cameras.

I use AI servo mode and continuous mode. Not sure it really matters as long as only the center autofocus point is selected. I tend not to take burst shots because I can't hear the camera, so I don't know if I'm just missing a whole series of shots.

No need for long exposure noise reduction for skydiving. Not sure if it has any effect at high shutter speeds, but it does slow the camera down for long exposures. Probably no effect for skydiving.

Dave

[lilchief 1]

but if I were to use manual focus... I'd have to use this calculator to find out what length and set my camera against a known distance on the ground to get what I want, right?

what do you mean by boken? I try to capture the entire tandem and with a shutterspeed that doesn't show any falpping of the suit. I like to have everything "frozen".

thanks for the website =)

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

but if I were to use manual focus... I'd have to use this calculator to find out what length and set my camera against a known distance on the ground to get what I want, right?

what do you mean by boken? I try to capture the entire tandem and with a shutterspeed that doesn't show any falpping of the suit. I like to have everything "frozen".

thanks for the website =)

A larger aperture (smaller number) results in more background blur, which is what's refered to as "bokeh", as well as a smaller depth-of-field, as was shown above by Phree. A smaller aperture makes for a larger depth-of-field (larger amount of the picture "in-focus"), but blurs the background less.

Try this: Take the camera outside on a bright, sunny day. Put it "P" mode and use the dial to get the largest aperture (smallest number) that you can.

Now - turn the camera toward yourself and make note of the button at roughly 5 o'clock to the lens, marked "DOF preview".

Find an object that has good separation between it and anything in the foreground/background, and focus on it. Press the "DOF preview" button while looking through the viewfinder - you should see stuff in the foreground and background 'blur out' and only the subject and some very close surroundings should be in focus.

Now - spin the main dial the OTHER way to your smallest aperture - probably f16 or f22 with the kit lens. Press the DOF preview button again and you should see MUCH more of the foreground and background in focus.

With the right settings, you could go to manual focus at a set distance and be assured that your subject would still be acceptable focus.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Addendum:

Most lenses are at their sharpest 2-3 stops up from wide open. IIRC, the kit lens is f/3.5 - f/5.6. This means that the max aperture at minimum zoom (17mm) is f/3.5 and the max aperture at full zoom (55mm) is f/5.6. Obviously, you're going to be set very close to minimum zoom, so let's use f/4 so we're looking at full stops.

Most lenses ALSO show some chromatic abberation (color fringing) when closed down too much - it usually shows up when you get over f/16 except on some high-end lenses.

f/8 is two stops up from f/4 (f/4 - f/5.6 - f/8). It's two stops down from f/16 (f/16 - f/11 - f/8), so you're safe from CA, so lets use this as our aperture setting.

Now - there's an old rule of thumb for exposure that will get you pretty damn close, depending on the lighting situation - it's called the "sunny 16" rule and is used for full sunlight (distinct, hard-edged shadows), front lit subjects - sounds exactly like what you'd have on a skydive, doesn't it?

You use manual mode and set your shutter speed to be equal to your ISO and the aperture to f/16. In your example, that would be a shutter speed of 1/100 second, aperture of f/16 for ISO 100.

Now, as stated above, we want to come DOWN from f/16 due to the possibility of CA and to get in the 'sweet spot'.

When you change one setting, you have to change the other settings to match to keep the exposure the same. So - we change from f/16 to f/8 - that's 2 stops INCREASE in the light that reaches the sensor, so we have to change our shutter speed and/or ISO by 2 stops as well.

So, change the shutter speed to 1/400 (1/100 sec - 1/200 sec - 1/400 sec) to reduce the light by two stops.

Now you've got manual settings of ISO 100, f/8, 1/400th sec - that should get you pretty close on the exposure. Since it's a fixed setting, you can easily do test shots on the ground to make sure it'll work for the light conditions and adjust as necessary.

Now....depth of field.....

Using the kit lens on a Rebel, set to f/8 and focused at a distance of 4 feet, you have everything fom 2.5 - 9 feet in focus. Obviously, you've got to be *right there* on your flying to stay in range.

I'd recommend using manual focus (don't forget to set the switch on the lens to manual focus) and tape the focus and zoom rings with rigger tape so they don't move. If you *must* use autofocus, I'd use AI Servo with ALL focus points selected - you've got enough DOF to pull it off.

Oh, yeah.... use the "sunlight" white balance setting rather than auto (AWB) - it makes for a bit 'warmer' photo with more pleasing colors.

*WOW* THAT was long-winded, wasn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Icon134 0]

I know the tick marks that you are reffering to... my 17mm tokina has them.


As I'm sure you know the numbers adjecent to the marks represnt the aperture value and the higher the aperture number the larger the depth of field will be.

Shooting skydiving is a delicate balance... it is difficult to put my trust in the autofocus thus I generally want to ensure there is enough DOF to cover the near and far, while also ensuring that shutter speed is fast enough to stop the action.

There are calculations that can be done basied on the focal point and the aperture value.

Personally, I shoot for an aperture between 8 - 12 because many lenses generally show aberations at lower and higher apertures... and usually set manual focus between 3 and 5 ft which usually results in sharp images at the distances I fly)...

I also generally try to shoot at ISO 200-400 (depending on the time of day) and will adjust the shutter speed between (I shoot in Tv mode) from 1/320 - 1/500.

Better yet just read what Mike said above...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[lilchief 1]

holy craaaaaaap...! that was a lot more complicated then I thought!

I feel like I have to start all over again haha. Lots of good stuff here, and I'll do some experiments tomorrow.

I'm amazed....

Thanks mike =)

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

holy craaaaaaap...! that was a lot more complicated then I thought!

I feel like I have to start all over again haha. Lots of good stuff here, and I'll do some experiments tomorrow.

I'm amazed....

Thanks mike =)

Honestly, it's not THAT complicated - it *can* be a bit difficult to wrap your head around at first, though.

It'll "click".... I promise!!

Good luck with the experiments...and make sure ya post a couple pics so we can see how it went!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

So, lilchief....how'd it go this weekend?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lilchief 1]

I came out to late on Saturday to get enough sunlight, and Sunday was overclouded, but yesterday I went on top of the Tower at the airport I work at and took some photos. of the rail with the planes in the background. However, I can't get the uploaded here. I've scaled them to match the requirements, but it doesn't work.

It seemed as I managed to "nail it" regarding large DOF, but the DOF preview I can't use. It's probably just me not being able to see the differences.

But these settings are good for sunny days. ow about when there are 50-60% cloud cover with wither towering cumulus and separate layers of clouds? It's all about the amount of light, right?

What about sport-mode with all the focus points active? does that sound like a good plan? I got an "advice" from someone at my DZ. I've never used any of the fully automatic or Tv/Av settings. But if I'm not mistaken, they are unpredictable and may cause the camera to freeze, get the photo out of focus or take less pictures, e.g missing exit, smiles and deployment.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[pilotdave 0]

Sport mode puts the camera into AI-Servo autofocus mode (if you use autofocus). Only the center autofocus point is used. Sport mode is a fully automatic mode. Works GREAT for skydiving. I highly recommend sport mode as a starting point. Study the settings that the camera chose for each picture and figure out why some worked and others didn't. When you think you can do a better job of choosing settings than the camera, switch to whatever mode is appropriate for the change you want to make.

Using a full auto mode drives the so-called experts nuts, but it works great. You do lose some control though. Most importantly (to me anyway), you can't use exposure compensation.

Try everything. Personally I eventually switched to Tv mode for a little more control.

Dave

[mnealtx 0]

f/22 - snow or beach
f/16 - sunny 16 bright daylight (dark, hard edged shadows)
f/11 - weak or hazy sun, sun low in sky (lighter, soft-edged shadows)
f/8 - stops cloudy bright (shadow barely visible)
f/5.6 - darker clouds, subject in shadow (no shadows)
f/4 - sunset

Remember, it's a GUIDELINE to get you close, not a hard and fast rule!! You very well may have to tweak a bit one direction or another depending on how YOUR camera exposes.

Try this: Sunny day (dark, hard-edged shadows). Set up the camera for Sunny 16 (F/16, shutter = ISO). Put a white washcloth in the scene and take a pic. Look at your pic in the review screen - is the washcloth "blinking"? If so, increase your shutter speed until it no longer blinks. The number of clicks would be your "adjustment" over Sunny 16 (you'd have to test to make sure it's the same with other lighting conditions). If you look at your histogram, you would see a 'spike' on the RH side that represents the washcloth - you want to have it not quite touching the RH side of the display.

2-4 shots (most likey) and you're set up for the lighting conditions. You would want to double-check every now and then through the course of the day as lighting changes.

The *KISS OF DEATH* for digital photography is UNDEREXPOSURE. It's better to be OVERexposed 1/3 stop and pull it back than to be UNDERexposed and have to bump it - it brings out a TON of noise in shadow areas.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pilotdave 0]

I'd never be able to figure out my settings that way. I'd have to work backwards... I usually use ISO 400. But I don't get very clear pictures at 1/400th, so I go with 1/800th most of the time. Light is constantly changing on a jump, so I let the camera figure out an aperture that'll properly expose my pictures. I use autofocus so I don't have to worry about my depth of field changing as the aperture changes.

If I started with an aperture like f/16 on a sunny day and ISO 100, I'd end up with a bunch of blurry pictures because the shutter speed would be way too low (1/100th). The sunny 16 rule probably works great when you've got a camera on tripod and a nice scene you want to capture. But for freefall, I need to prioritize shutter speed. Gotta bump up the ISO if I can't get a decent speed... or I end up with something like the one attached, at 1/40th f/3.5. I was orbiting around the formation... kind of a neat effect.
Dave

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I'd never be able to figure out my settings that way. I'd have to work backwards... I usually use ISO 400. But I don't get very clear pictures at 1/400th, so I go with 1/800th most of the time. Light is constantly changing on a jump, so I let the camera figure out an aperture that'll properly expose my pictures. I use autofocus so I don't have to worry about my depth of field changing as the aperture changes.

Ok, ISO 400. Remember what I said about "if you change one setting, you have to change the other to match".

1/400th at f/16 to 1/800th at f/11 to 1/1600th at f/8 - I don't think you'll have a problem with motion blur. Letting the camera make a guess about the aperture for you *is* what's affecting your DOF.

Light just doesn't change THAT much, dude... unless you're jumping 'industrial haze', that is.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Letting the camera make a guess about the aperture for you *is* what's affecting your DOF.

What I meant was, I don't care that my DOF changes because I use autofocus. If I used MF, I would have to lock in my aperture to make sure my focus won't change.

Light can change a LOT on a given jump... The attached pic was taken a earlier in the same jump as the one i posted above. Well the light didn't change much, but I moved. Also, like you said, clouds can change the light. Don't need to go through a cloud for it to affect the light.

Dave

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Letting the camera make a guess about the aperture for you *is* what's affecting your DOF.

What I meant was, I don't care that my DOF changes because I use autofocus. If I used MF, I would have to lock in my aperture to make sure my focus won't change.

I'm agreeing with you to a point. I'm just saying that the camera CAN make choices for focus point and aperture that could leave you out in the cold, that's all.

Quote

Light can change a LOT on a given jump... The attached pic was taken a earlier in the same jump as the one i posted above. Well the light didn't change much, but I moved. Also, like you said, clouds can change the light. Don't need to go through a cloud for it to affect the light.

Dae

Agreed - that's why I made mention of it being a RULE OF THUMB to get you close - the movement you describe above and the changes in light due to it makes full manual a bad choice for you in that regard.

Besides...learning MORE about how to use your camera is never a BAD thing, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lilchief 1]

Yes! I finally managed to upload photos. I took these today.

Iso 200
Shutter: 640/s
Blender/f-stop: 10
Focal length: 18mm
Focus distance: 3m

I've made a mark in the lens where the focus is at 3m(10f). Especially on the last one, the auto focus would have surrendered or get pissed hehe =D

I lost the tape holding the focus and focal length, so after the cloud it all got out of focus =(

Thanks for the help! =)

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[lilchief 1]

in this picture you can actually see how it looks when it's to close and how the focus changes over distance =)

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[mnealtx 0]

Nice shots!! I'm glad the little bit of information I provided was a help!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706