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Kynan1

Why do video jumps pay so little?

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Considering the gear involved...roughly $2000, which doesn't include your rig, isn't it a bit low to get @$30 for a video jump?
If you had video gear for the sole purpose of making money, you'd do 150 jumps, before breaking even. Not to mention wear and tear, etc.
So, if a tandem averages $200, why just $30 for the video and $30 for the tandem master. It's almost insulting.

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What's the problem, really? Where I used to work, us vidiots would make between 15 and 40 tandem vids a weekend. Of course it depends upon weather and bookings etc but say on average, 20 vids a weekend....that's about $600 (we did make a bit more than $30 but not much).

So that means you would have to work all of 4 weekends to make up the cost of your gear....is that really that bad?

I hear people bitch about it all the time and I just don't get it. My camera helmet cost around $4500 to put together but I've made enough money filming tandems to pay for two of those helmets, both of my rigs, two extra film cameras, two more digital SLR's, a couple trips to Rantoul, a couple trips out to Eloy, and I still had plenty of money left over.....

You're getting paid to skydive - sure it could be better but, it's still a pretty good gig






Action©Sports

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Over here we get paid € 55,-, But have do do everything ourselves, pack, edit etc. in 18 minutes time. Everything has to be own property (TV's recorders, computers, mixing panel etc etc etc) the DZ doesn't supply anything. We have to use printed DVD's and covers in full color. Edit has to a fixed script and should be about 7-9 minutes. And our "edit room" has to be paid to the DZ about € 800 - € 1000,- a year.

Oh yeah, we only get about 50-70 jumps a year.

Not very profitable.

BUT! We don't have to pay for our tea and coffee... ;)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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Wow! I have to say that pretty much blows. You might want to consider moving :D

Our DZ supplied a very nice video room with DVD burners, mixing tables, title editors, cd players, etc.. There was even a coded lock on the door so we could store our gear in there if we wanted to. They also supplied DVD's or VHS tapes and 35mm film.

We had to supply our own camera gear, skydiving gear, and Mini DV tapes. For that we were paid $34 per jump. I really can't bitch.







Action©Sports

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, before breaking even. Not to mention wear and tear, etc.




Up until recently I was not even close to breaking even. I've been flying camera for 3 -4 years.

the wear and tear costs more than I make.
when you consider that I bought
-a laptop,
-all the gear-- cam suit, helmets etc....
-a different lens,
-a second rig(yup just for working) and the maintenance on them
-repacks,
-cd's/dvd's,
-rigging (I don't even want to look at how much I spent this year alone.)
-Gas (on a slow day I spend more in gas then I get paid) wear and tear on the vehicle.

I spend more then I earn not to mention the practice jumps and the tunnel time just to hone skills.

Sure its all fun but it cost more than I make.


I am going to link a post that lewmonst posted. Its something everycamera flyer goes through.
My photos

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1435985;page=4;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

BTW- NOBODY makes money in skydiving.
TM's don't make much, pilots don't make much. in fact if I get a few VID and STILLS packages I make the most out of everyone on the DZ.


(that is because I use all of my own gear)
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i dont know what ¨makes money¨ means for you or maybe it was a joke... but on my dz packers do LOTS of moeny, instructors do good money, video team good money

anyway maybe i have different perception of what ¨good money are¨ (coming from a small almost poor country)


-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

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Considering the gear involved...roughly $2000, which doesn't include your rig, isn't it a bit low to get @$30 for a video jump?
.



All other points of your post aside, how do you get into video gear for only 2K?'

FTP: 700.00
Quality cam: 1-2K
Wide Adapter: 150.00
Extra Batts/etc 125.00
HypEye/Cam-I 50.00-100.00
Ring sight 100.00-300.00
Cam mount 25.00-200.00
Add stills>>>>
DSLR (low end) 500.00
Good lens 600.00-800.00
Tongue/Bite 50.00
Card reader 25.00
Extra 1 GB card 50.00

HDD to store work: 200.00
Cam suit? 250.00
Gaff tape 10.00
Lens cloth 5.00

Seems to me the median is closer to 3-4K? I suppos used gear/older gear would keep you closer to cheap.

Plus I use my own laptop at the DZ, software, etc.
This is directly tied to the "Am I an asshole" thread, IMO.
Further, IMO, cam flyers generally should be paid more than TM's, simply because:
~More invested in gear (TM's usually use DZ gear rather than owning their own)
~Much more time invested (cam flyers have to edit, generally)
~At many DZ's, TM's don't pack their own gear, but cam flyers seem to always be packing.
~Finally, I have no interest in being a TM/TI, so I'll just express it as greed.;)

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i dont know what ¨makes money¨ means for you or maybe it was a joke... but on my dz packers do LOTS of moeny, instructors do good money, video team good money




I guessa better term is make a PROFIT. Sure I make money but it hasn't even come close to paying back the money I spend.
/spent.
My photos

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I agree that video jumps pay a relatively small amount.

If it made life easier for everybody, I think it would just be wiser to have every camera flyer act as their own private contractor. Of course, like any suggestion there are many ups and downs.

For smaller dropzones like the ones I jump at, it would be fairly simple to have video/stills as an option, and then have each individual camera person work out their own deal. Where there are only a couple camera guys jumping, i don't think too big of a price battle would ensue.

For example, I (of course) started by lurking groups, and eventually lurking some AFF jumps all on my own $$. Then, as my confidence and abilities grew, I worked it out so I would film it if they paid for my jump ticket, then we would review it and that's the end of it.

Now that I am doing paid video jobs, I have been extremely content with the financial situation at the dropzone. All my video/stills equipment i already owned for my every day job. I had to purchase helmets, camera suits, blah blah blah. But being fairly fresh to the sport they just feel like necessary expenses to do the thing I love.

My point being I would happily video/still a tandem and edit it for the price of my jump ticket plus $20. The $$ helps cover gas to the DZ, tapes, and discs, because if I wasn't doing THAT video job I would probably be doing the same thing for experienced people for MAYBE my jump ticket, or a sandwich or something. On the other hand, guys who have been doing this for a while could be charging more than me, where they have the right to. But this, I realize, would never work at most medium/large dropzones, because inevitably every paying student/passenger wants the cheap guy would will do a fine job as opposed to the even slightly more expensive guy who will do a stunning bang-up job. So, basically this applies to a DZ with only a couple/few camera flyers.

Typically I will go to the dropzone on saturday and fun jump all day. I leave and come back the next day and do a couple fun jumps and 3-4 paid video jobs. Said and done, my account usually comes out to somewhere around +/- $20. If I am ahead, woo hoo. If I am behind, then $20 feels a whole lot better than the $200+ the weekend usually would cost me.

Of course I say all of this knowing that I am not a full time vidiot. I casually edit a handful of videos during the week when I normally wouldn't be doing anything anyway. I don't hate it YET. But for me, photography is a passion, and so is skydiving. When I can go have a weekend completely packed with both of them together and the worst case financial scenario being it cost me $20, I am very content. Of course, I never wanna sell myself short either. It's not easy, nor is it the safest discipline in the sport. There needs to be some hazard pay in there as well.

This is a point of view from an in-betweener. If I were at the DZ 3-4 times a weeks filming mad tandems and AFF, I would expect a bit more hefty cushion as well, so I see where everybody is coming from.

And of course, there is always the canopy/helmet cutaway combo lurking in the corner. If my helmet ever has to get chopped, I will put forth a serious effort to raise the pay 7-8 hundred percent for video/stills.

/end novel

edited for spelling/clarity
It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

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Quote

Considering the gear involved...roughly $2000, which doesn't include your rig, isn't it a bit low to get @$30 for a video jump?
.



All other points of your post aside, how do you get into video gear for only 2K?'

FTP: 700.00
Quality cam: 1-2K
Wide Adapter: 150.00
Extra Batts/etc 125.00
HypEye/Cam-I 50.00-100.00
Ring sight 100.00-300.00
Cam mount 25.00-200.00
Add stills>>>>
DSLR (low end) 500.00
Good lens 600.00-800.00
Tongue/Bite 50.00
Card reader 25.00
Extra 1 GB card 50.00

HDD to store work: 200.00
Cam suit? 250.00
Gaff tape 10.00
Lens cloth 5.00

Seems to me the median is closer to 3-4K? I suppos used gear/older gear would keep you closer to cheap.

Plus I use my own laptop at the DZ, software, etc.
This is directly tied to the "Am I an asshole" thread, IMO.
Further, IMO, cam flyers generally should be paid more than TM's, simply because:
~More invested in gear (TM's usually use DZ gear rather than owning their own)
~Much more time invested (cam flyers have to edit, generally)
~At many DZ's, TM's don't pack their own gear, but cam flyers seem to always be packing.
~Finally, I have no interest in being a TM/TI, so I'll just express it as greed.;)


Yes, a videographer has a lot of money invested in equipment. I disagree with some of these figures but the bottom line is that there is quite an investment depending which/how much of these you need.

However, most replies here have disregarded the fact that TIs have a substantial financial investment as well. You think somebody just handed them a tandem rating for free? To be a TI you have to have a D license, money invested on the jumps, training, and license fees. You also must have a coach rating, money spent on the rating course. You also must complete the tandem rating course, money spent again for the course, jumps, travel, etc. To be a videographer, in most cases, you don't have to prove to anybody that you have the skill required by holding a rating. You don't need to spend 3 years in the sport that is required for a tandem rating.

If you think a videographer is substantially more financially committed, I'd say that that is arguable. A little more maybe.

You say that TMs generally don't pack and videographers do. I've been to DZs where that's the exact opposite. It just depends on the particular situation.

TMs also accept personal risk beyond their control. Students, and yes (gasp) videographers, add inherent risk to every skydive.

You say videographers spend more time because they edit. Bullshit! Did you stop to realize that TMs gear up, train, and debrief every student including filling out a log book?

Yes, there is wear and tear on your personal gear as a videographer. OTOH you get to fly and land your own canopy, a benefit in my mind. It's a wash.

The bottom line is you simply have not considered but one side of the equation. And it is apparent that you don't really know what is involved in being a TM. Is there a reason why you're not interested in being a TM? That in itself is interesting. Is it too much risk? too boring? too much like work? What exactly is it?

I do tandems, tandem videos, and AFF. (I won't even get into expense and time invested in AFF) I have two camera helmets, one for tandem/FS/freefly/etc. and one exclusively for AFF. I've got all the equipment you mention. I maintain two personal rigs. I do whatever the DZ needs me to do at the moment and I'm compensated roughly equally for each and I have absolutely no complaints about any of the rates. I love doing all of them. Part of the benefit is I get paid to skydive. If I wanted to make the most money possible at the DZ, I'd park my ass in the packing room and pack. But then I wouldn't be skydiving, would I?

The bottom line is you're not going to get rich skydiving for a living. Can you make ends meet? Sure. Are there overhead expenses? Sure.

If we raise the rates to the point that everybody gets paid what they want, the numbers of tandems will so significantly decrease that you'll lose money in the long run. I mean really, what's going to give if we are going to pay videographers more? TMs less? DZOs less? Tandem students more? Video prices more? It all falls back to what the student is going to pay. I think it's already around $180 for a tandem and $80 for a video as a rough average. How much do you suppose they're willing to pay? $260 is a pretty good chunk of change for 1 jump.

So, if the current rate is not good enough for you, don't do it. If you're looking to get rich skydiving....good luck! IMO, if part of the reason you do videos/tandems/AFF isn't because you love to do it, you should do something else instead.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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I'd rather not jump video then have to low ball my work to compete with every Joe that gets a camera and wants to make a few $'s. There are lots of them that I've seen come and go in the last few years. They are the type that shows up and offers to shoot videos for little more then their slot but yet when you get down you can't hardly tell who was in the video.

Ive heard stories that a few years ago there was a DZ that let the video people run as independent businesses. One person took it so far that he'd stand in the parking lot and snag the people before they had even made it to registration and would harass the people there and undercut everyone on the DZ just to get the business. Needless to say he wasn't popular with the other locals but he didn't care since he was the one making the money. The quality of the product would widely vary since person X just didn't feel like doing extra work since he wasn't going to be making much money for the extra time investment.

Tandem videos are advertising for the DZ as much as anything else. Any DZ that lets poor videos out the door with someone paying for them is just shooting themselves in the foot.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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--------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Considering the gear involved...roughly $2000, which doesn't include your rig, isn't it a bit low to get @$30 for a video jump?
------------------------------------------------------------

All other points of your post aside, how do you get into video gear for only 2K?'



I guess you missed the above line in my post?

Quote

You say videographers spend more time because they edit. Bullshit! Did you stop to realize that TMs gear up, train, and debrief every student including filling out a log book?


Perhaps you edit like many cam flyers, I don't. My vids aren't in-camera edits run off to a mixer where music and maybe a title or two are added. So...not going down that particular argument.
I'm very familiar with tandem students being geared up, trained, babysat as any camera flyer ought to be. Debrief? You mean the "thanks for jumping with us, see you in the hangar?" that I've seen at the end of every tandem at every dropzone? Every DZ is different, but of the 40+ DZ's I've visited around the world, this is one consistency found throughout. If it's not a busy day, I've seen instructors walk their students to the hangar/gear area, but it's very rare.


Quote

The bottom line is you simply have not considered but one side of the equation. And it is apparent that you don't really know what is involved in being a TM. Is there a reason why you're not interested in being a TM? That in itself is interesting. Is it too much risk? too boring? too much like work? What exactly is it?



The bottom line is that you haven't got a clue what I have or have not considered. Your emotional reaction to a light-hearted post indicates you didn't consider that perhaps...I have other priorities. Being a TI/TM isn't one of them. You take that as a sign of disrespect for TM/TI's, which is in itself, interesting.;)
Considering my passion and daily work take me in one direction doesn't mean I don't have respect for what someone else does. Additionally, apparently you consider video for tandems to be the only point worth discussing. We're of a different thought process there, shooting tandems can be fun, but that's *not* where the real excitement is for me, personally. YMMV.

Finally, if you disagree with my figures, please tell me where I'm wrong. Given that I purchase more camera equipment in a month than most folks buy in a lifetime...I'd like to hear where I missed the boat. I feel I'm reasonably conservative in my numbers. For example, the cam I fly *most* of the time is a 5K cam. You don't see my gear in that list, just general gear. Perhaps you jump a modified Pro-tec, that's fine, and a lot less expensive than an FTP, no doubt. I prefer a custom made helmet or an FTP for what I wish to accomplish.

Please re-read my post. I'm not complaining about revenue. I won't see financial returns on my investments, ever. The cam I've just ordered that will be heavily used for skydiving is 12K alone. And I bought two. It's not about the money, so long as I'm not too far in the hole as I chase my passion.
Please tell me what DZ packs for camera flyers but not for TM's. I'd like to work there.;)

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"All my video/stills equipment i already owned for my every day job."

And what is that everyday job?



Advertising photography/photojournalism. I owned all my cameras and lenses, including wide angles, prior to even beginning skydiving. The video camera was used to document work/locations for later reference. I even had the switches laying around, as they come in handy for tripod photography/ night photography, and is extremely convenient for studio photography, although I primarily use a wireless switch for that.
It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

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Considering the gear involved...roughly $2000, which doesn't include your rig, isn't it a bit low to get @$30 for a video jump?
------------------------------------------------------------

All other points of your post aside, how do you get into video gear for only 2K?'



I guess you missed the above line in my post?

No, I didn't. I've got no real dispute with what you came up with. I think it's pretty accurate. Other than you don't need an FTP to shoot video. You can get a helmet like a Rawa that is sufficient and cuts the helmet cost in half and eliminates the need for a separate video camera mounting system. You can also get a good mini DV camera sufficient for shooting video for less than the 1-2K you estimate. Overall, however, I agree 3-4K is a reasonable amount to expect for overhead. I have no significant dispute with that.

However, I also read beyond that. Yes I read the entire post. And you said:

Quote

Further, IMO, cam flyers generally should be paid more than TM's, simply because:
~More invested in gear (TM's usually use DZ gear rather than owning their own)
~Much more time invested (cam flyers have to edit, generally)
~At many DZ's, TM's don't pack their own gear, but cam flyers seem to always be packing.



This simply is not accurate.

Quote

Quote

You say videographers spend more time because they edit. Bullshit! Did you stop to realize that TMs gear up, train, and debrief every student including filling out a log book?


Perhaps you edit like many cam flyers, I don't. My vids aren't in-camera edits run off to a mixer where music and maybe a title or two are added. So...not going down that particular argument.


First, I know the type of edits you speak of. I've seen them too. Personally, at my DZ we have editors that do the editing, the camera flyers do not. They are paid per edit and it is not the simple edit you describe. They provide a quality product that meets or exceeds the industry standard. And they do it in about ten minutes per video. If you decide to be Stephen Speilberg with your videos, that's great. Perhaps you provide a product that far exceeds the industry standard. If you choose to do that, you're spending more time than necessary. Don't expect customers to pay more because you go the extra mile, they won't. Does that mean I condone providing a substandard product? No. But the industry standard is what the customer is paying for and that is what they should get.

Quote

I'm very familiar with tandem students being geared up, trained, babysat as any camera flyer ought to be. Debrief? You mean the "thanks for jumping with us, see you in the hangar?" that I've seen at the end of every tandem at every dropzone? Every DZ is different, but of the 40+ DZ's I've visited around the world, this is one consistency found throughout. If it's not a busy day, I've seen instructors walk their students to the hangar/gear area, but it's very rare.



What DZs exactly have you been to? This is not the standard at most DZs I've been to, and I've been to just as many. Yes, I've seen what you describe. Consistency throughout? Hardly. Yes, I mean debrief. Does that mean an AFF type debrief...no. But with every student I write specifically what occurred on that particular jump, not just congrats, in their logbook. I inform them of any promotions that my DZ has, part of the job to bring them back. I also inform them of the student training program, whether or not I think they may be interested. This is at a minimum with each tandem. Level 2 and 3 tandems get a significantly more detailed debrief and instruction throughout the skydive, all the way to taking gear to the packing room and laying it out properly to be packed.....every time. It's not just thanks, see ya later....anywhere that I've been.

Quote

The bottom line is that you haven't got a clue what I have or have not considered. Your emotional reaction to a light-hearted post indicates you didn't consider that perhaps...I have other priorities. Being a TI/TM isn't one of them. You take that as a sign of disrespect for TM/TI's, which is in itself, interesting.;)



Really? You said videographers should get paid more based on what they have invested. That gives me a pretty damn good idea of what you have and have not considered. I do both, I know exactly what is involved in both. You clearly do not. And an insult from a videographer? I don't feel insulted. Again, I do both, that would be like insulting myself. I just don't think you know what you're talking about.

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Considering my passion and daily work take me in one direction doesn't mean I don't have respect for what someone else does. Additionally, apparently you consider video for tandems to be the only point worth discussing. We're of a different thought process there, shooting tandems can be fun, but that's *not* where the real excitement is for me, personally. YMMV.



Ok, fair enough. But this doesn't mean that, in general, videographers should make more than TMs as you clearly stated. If you choose to take it the extra mile because that is your passion, that's great! But that doesn't change the industry standard.

Quote

Additionally, apparently you consider video for tandems to be the only point worth discussing.



Silly me, I thought you said:

Quote

IMO, cam flyers generally should be paid more than TM's



If we're talking, other than tandem video, cam flyers can and do get paid more, if they're any good.

Quote

Please re-read my post. I'm not complaining about revenue. I won't see financial returns on my investments, ever. The cam I've just ordered that will be heavily used for skydiving is 12K alone. And I bought two. It's not about the money, so long as I'm not too far in the hole as I chase my passion.



Rock on! Not necessary, but if that's your passion, that's fine. But you said:

Quote


IMO, cam flyers generally should be paid more than TM's, simply because:
~More invested in gear (TM's usually use DZ gear rather than owning their own)
~Much more time invested (cam flyers have to edit, generally)
~At many DZ's, TM's don't pack their own gear, but cam flyers seem to always be packing.



I'm calling bullshit on this, it's what you said.

Quote

Please tell me what DZ packs for camera flyers but not for TM's. I'd like to work there.;)


I know of several DZs that compensate for pack jobs, for TMs, videographers, and AFF instructors. If you choose to pack, you keep the compensation. Of course I know of others that do not. I'm very surprised that as many DZs as you claim to be familiar with, that you don't know this.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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[:/]You still don't get it. That's OK, I understand that you don't get it. I hear you 5x5.
I'll retract one word I used; "Generally." There are those that are photographers, and those that put cameras on their heads. They aren't "generally" the same. There is artistry and then there is a "set it and forget it" perspective.
Yes, I do feel that in some circumstances, camera flyers deserve more than TM's/TI's. You feel that's bullshit, and that's OK too. It's *great* that you have staff editors at your DZ. *Most* DZ's don't. This I know as fact, as it was a part of a research project last fall. The question of packing wasn't part of that project, however.
You said:
Quote

I disagree with some of these figures but the bottom line is that there is quite an investment depending which/how much of these you need.


What figures do you disagree with?

Additionally, most of the DZ's I've been to are outside the US. Perhaps there is a difference? Dunno. Haven't been a staff photographer on those DZ's. Haven't photographed *tandems* on most of those DZ's. Have had long discussions with photographers on those DZ's as well as folks here, not to mention the number of posts discussing compensation. Perhaps I don't have all the specifics, yet I thought I was pretty clear on the generalities. I don't have seven years in the sport nor 1200 jumps. I'm approximately half that number in a little over a year, so will defer to your obviously superior knowledge and vastly greater experience.

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Further, IMO, TMs generally should be paid more than cam flyers, simply because:
~TM has a risker job
~TM has someone else's life in their hands
~TM has to be nice, chatty, and professional. Cam flyer can just fall asleep in the plane.
~Finally, I've no interest in being either a TM or a cam flyer, so I thought I'd disagree with you because I can :).

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Further, IMO, TMs generally should be paid more than cam flyers, simply because:
~TM has a risker job
~TM has someone else's life in their hands
~TM has to be nice, chatty, and professional. Cam flyer can just fall asleep in the plane.
~Finally, I've no interest in being either a TM or a cam flyer, so I thought I'd disagree with you because I can :).



Actually, Not that I wanna get involvedwith this conversation, the way we sit in the 182, I am usually the one talking with the student.
I dont mind it at all. when we fly the caravan the TM/TI does the entertaining.
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You still don't get it. That's OK, I understand that you don't get it. I hear you 5x5.
I'll retract one word I used; "Generally." There are those that are photographers, and those that put cameras on their heads. They aren't "generally" the same. There is artistry and then there is a "set it and forget it" perspective.



Yes, I do get it. And now that you've modified what you've said, I'll agree. But the thread was very clearly started about "general" video work at DZs. If we're talking about other than that, I understand exactly where you're coming from.

Quote

It's *great* that you have staff editors at your DZ. *Most* DZ's don't. This I know as fact, as it was a part of a research project last fall.



I agree and don't dispute this at all.

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You said:

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In Reply To
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I disagree with some of these figures but the bottom line is that there is quite an investment depending which/how much of these you need.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What figures do you disagree with?



Oh, hell, I guess I'll say it again. Let me cut and paste it from one of my other posts:

Quote

I've got no real dispute with what you came up with. I think it's pretty accurate. Other than you don't need an FTP to shoot video. You can get a helmet like a Rawa that is sufficient and cuts the helmet cost in half and eliminates the need for a separate video camera mounting system. You can also get a good mini DV camera sufficient for shooting video for less than the 1-2K you estimate. Overall, however, I agree 3-4K is a reasonable amount to expect for overhead. I have no significant dispute with that.



Quote

I'm approximately half that number in a little over a year, so will defer to your obviously superior knowledge and vastly greater experience.



Whatever. I thought this was a discussion on whether DZ staff videographers should be paid more or not. I argued against the points you made. You've discussed other than tandem videos, but to me that clearly is not what the thread is about. The OP specifically refers to tandem videos. Your initial post compares videographers to TMs. Now you want to talk about other-than-tandem-videos. In that case there is no basis for comparison and is outside the scope of the thread.

You won't hurt my feelings having a different opinion. If I hurt yours, I guess I'll just have to find some way to get over it.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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Further, IMO, TMs generally should be paid more than cam flyers, simply because:
~TM has a risker job
~TM has someone else's life in their hands
~TM has to be nice, chatty, and professional. Cam flyer can just fall asleep in the plane.
~Finally, I've no interest in being either a TM or a cam flyer, so I thought I'd disagree with you because I can :).



LMAO....now that's funny.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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Cool. I understand. I responded with "all other points aside..." and specifically addressed one point. I should have stuck with "tandems only."
No hurt feelings, still scratching my head on what we disagree over, other than my opinion that in some cases, photographers should be paid more than a TM.

Gee whiz Dave...after I traveled all the way to Oz to meet you, you side against me?;):P You probably feel RW should get union wages.
See you in a couple months (after it warms up there). I still owe you lotsa :D

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