chrismgtis 0 #1 June 19, 2007 Can someone that knows about video cameras make a list of their opinion of the "best" cameras in specific dollar ranges? (eg., $200, $300, $400, $500, etc). For use in tandem video for example, not just for anything. Along with different types of media and which is better for what types of situations? I'm curious myself and I'm sure it would be beneficial to others.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #2 June 19, 2007 Cameras change all the time. This would be a lot of work to keep updated. Generally, buy sony, buy a mini dv camera, buy one with lanc, dv-in is nice, buy the right kind for your purpose: NTCS or PAL, buy HDV if you can afford it/may need it, check this website for problems with a specific model (like HC7), topmount the camera you just bought. Forget about taking photos with said camera. Hard to go wrong with that, in any price range. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #3 June 20, 2007 Quote Cameras change all the time. This would be a lot of work to keep updated. I know, was just looking for a few examples of what most people use. Quote Generally, buy sony, buy a mini dv camera, buy one with lanc, dv-in is nice, buy the right kind for your purpose: NTCS or PAL, buy HDV if you can afford it/may need it, check this website for problems with a specific model (like HC7), topmount the camera you just bought. Forget about taking photos with said camera. MiniDV is recorded onto tape which isn't what I would personally call truly digital though (since the information is recorded on tape and degradation can occur). Is there any noticeable quality difference between MiniDV and another option such as a camera with a hard drive?Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #4 June 20, 2007 hard drives don't work at altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #5 June 20, 2007 Quote MiniDV is recorded onto tape which isn't what I would personally call truly digital though (since the information is recorded on tape and degradation can occur). Is there any noticeable quality difference between MiniDV and another option such as a camera with a hard drive? Actually Mini DV is digital even though it is recorded to a tape... and there has been a lot of discussion about hard drive cameras here. The concensus is that they don't work so well for skydiving... (due to the rapid air pressure changes during freefall) There is some hope that the new Sony AVCHD (did i get that right?) flash drive camera will be suitable for skydiving. Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #6 June 20, 2007 Quote Actually Mini DV is digital even though it is recorded to a tape... That isn't what I meant though. You can take an MP3, AVI, MOV or other digital audio or video file, transfer it as many times as you want across mediums such as hard drives, CD, networks, etc and the quality will remain the same. The minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. It would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade (from being used so often), but the question is would this happen if you transferred a HD quality file over to a brand new MiniDV (quality loss you can notice with the naked eye - not because the type of compression or other changes, but due to the type of physical medium used)? I would guess not really, but I'm curious. I guess if you did notice any difference it would mainly be on some of the better televisions that you would see the difference. Hopefully what I'm asking makes sense Quote hard drives don't work at altitude. That sucks. Good to know though.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #7 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteActually Mini DV is digital even though it is recorded to a tape... That isn't what I meant though. You can take an MP3, AVI, MOV or other digital audio or video file, transfer it as many times as you want across mediums such as hard drives, CD, networks, etc and the quality will remain the same. The minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. It would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade (from being used so often), but the question is would this happen if you transferred a HD quality file over to a brand new MiniDV (quality loss you can notice with the naked eye - not because the type of compression or other changes, but due to the type of physical medium used)?Quote OK, I'm by no means an expert... but the "medium" i.e. tape, hard drive, flash memory... isn't what makes the format digital... but the process of storing it... from the site howstuffworks.com: "Digital Formats: Digital camcorders differ from analog camcorders in a few very important ways. They record information digitally, as bytes, which means the image can be reproduced without losing any image or audio quality. Digital video can also be downloaded to a computer, where you can edit it or post it on the Web. Another distinction is that digital video has a much better resolution than analog video, typically 500 lines. There are two consumer digital formats in widespread use:" they go on to list several types of digital media to include Mini DV, Digital8, DVD, and other memory storage devices. Just because the "media" i.e. tape is "linear" it doesn't make it analog.Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #8 June 20, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. Try to understand that miniDV tape is a digital medium. Same sized phisical medium is used for data backup and know as DDS/DAT. QuoteIt would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade (from being used so often), but the question is would this happen if you transferred a HD quality file over to a brand new MiniDV (quality loss you can notice with the naked eye - not because the type of compression or other changes, but due to the type of physical medium used)? Most people don't rewrite their miniDV tapes. For two reason: 1:. they want to keep it 2.:They are so cheap. Some background reading for you: DV from Wikipedia VHS from Wikipedia I hope you could believe after reading these that QuoteSharper picture, brighter color... message on miniDV tapes is *BS*. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrismgtis 0 #9 June 20, 2007 Quote OK, I'm by no means an expert... but the "medium" i.e. tape, hard drive, flash memory... isn't what makes the format digital... but the process of storing it... I know. Nevermind. Quote Most people don't rewrite their miniDV tapes. For two reason: 1:. they want to keep it 2.:They are so cheap. Most people of course not, but tandem photographers or anyone that does free fall videography for example wouldn't insert a new tape every time they go up. What I was asking is actually very technical and I guess I'm asking the wrong people I just wanted an opinion from people who used MiniDV often out of curiosity.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brains 2 #10 June 20, 2007 Quote Most people of course not, but tandem photographers or anyone that does free fall videography for example wouldn't insert a new tape every time they go up. No, we don't. But but what he meant was that we don't re-record over old footage. When i get to the end of my tape, then yes, i put in a new one. How long are your skydives??? Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #11 June 20, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. No, there will be no loss in quality. The bits and the bytes and all that stuff stay the same. QuoteIt would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade You don't end up with a degradation in picture quality like you do with VHS tapes. The tape does degrade, which can cause reliability problems... drop outs, etc. This is why we only use each tape once. Typically what I do is record more than I need (leave it running through my opening and maybe record my landing). Don't need either of those for 4-way video for example (I do keep them for tandem videos), so I rewind the tape back to where the team breaks off and start recording from that point on the next jump. So there is some overlap, recording over a previous recording for the first few seconds usually. But beyond that, when the tape is full, it's done. Recording jump after jump doesn't degrade the tape because the recorded part is just wound back up. Would really suck to record a tandem or something on an old, used tape and find that there are drop outs. Tapes are cheap enough... no need for that. I paid $2.90 each including shipping last time I bought them. Each tape holds about an hour. Hard drive camera would be cool if it worked, but then you'd run into problems when the drive is full. You'd have to stop in the middle of the day to dump the footage somewhere. Tapes are great because you can just pop a new one in. Solid state memory would be nice if you can swap memory cards. Other nice thing about both of those is no need to rewind... jump right where you want. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shunkka 0 #12 June 20, 2007 minidv - 2 euro 2 euro= 60 minutes 60 minutes = 45 - 50 normal skydives (with exit/no landing) 45-50 skydives = 1000 euro (average price 21/jump) i think we can afford to pay 2 euro at every 1000 ------------------------- "jump, have fun, pull" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #13 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteMiniDV is recorded onto tape which isn't what I would personally call truly digital though (since the information is recorded on tape and degradation can occur). Is there any noticeable quality difference between MiniDV and another option such as a camera with a hard drive? Not quite...DV tape, like DLT tape drives for computer, are entirely digital. There is no analog component to the tape system. It's all 1's and 0's. Degradation cannot occur. Corruption (just like on a hard drive) can occur, but that happens with anything digital. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #14 June 21, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. This isn't true. Yes, magnetic drop outs can and do occur due to shedding of magnetic particles or misaligned heads, but unlike analog formats (where drop outs also occur but are irretrievable), most digital storage mediums use what are know as "parity bits." These extra bits in the data stream are a sort of built in error correction whereby the playback device can exactly and mathematically replicate the bits that were lost. This happens all the time with digital tapes as well as digital disks (CD, DVD, etc.). It just happens so seamlessly that you don't even notice it. The digital data stream coming out of the playback device is an exact duplicate of the original digital data stream. What most people refer to (and notice) as drop outs are actually massive losses of data, including parity bits, which are so large that they cannot be replicated. I am not familiar with the actual data stream of a MiniDV video tape, but I know in the old days of CDs and DATs (remember them), they both recorded the same format (44.1kHz, 16-bit PWM), but the DATs actually had a longer data stream and included more parity bits because of the higher losses expected due to magnetic particle shedding. Yes, DV and MiniDV formats are pure digital. Just as digital as optical disks. And actually a less compressed, higher quality digital video data stream than DVD or hard drive camcorders. BTW, not to be a wise a@#, but I am hoping either your original question was just out of pure curiosity, or the jump numbers in your profile are incorrect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #15 June 21, 2007 Maybe he just wants to film landings. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #16 June 21, 2007 Quote minidv - 2 euro Can you tell me where can I get miniDV tapes for 2 Euros, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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phoenixlpr 0 #8 June 20, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. Try to understand that miniDV tape is a digital medium. Same sized phisical medium is used for data backup and know as DDS/DAT. QuoteIt would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade (from being used so often), but the question is would this happen if you transferred a HD quality file over to a brand new MiniDV (quality loss you can notice with the naked eye - not because the type of compression or other changes, but due to the type of physical medium used)? Most people don't rewrite their miniDV tapes. For two reason: 1:. they want to keep it 2.:They are so cheap. Some background reading for you: DV from Wikipedia VHS from Wikipedia I hope you could believe after reading these that QuoteSharper picture, brighter color... message on miniDV tapes is *BS*. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #9 June 20, 2007 Quote OK, I'm by no means an expert... but the "medium" i.e. tape, hard drive, flash memory... isn't what makes the format digital... but the process of storing it... I know. Nevermind. Quote Most people don't rewrite their miniDV tapes. For two reason: 1:. they want to keep it 2.:They are so cheap. Most people of course not, but tandem photographers or anyone that does free fall videography for example wouldn't insert a new tape every time they go up. What I was asking is actually very technical and I guess I'm asking the wrong people I just wanted an opinion from people who used MiniDV often out of curiosity.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #10 June 20, 2007 Quote Most people of course not, but tandem photographers or anyone that does free fall videography for example wouldn't insert a new tape every time they go up. No, we don't. But but what he meant was that we don't re-record over old footage. When i get to the end of my tape, then yes, i put in a new one. How long are your skydives??? Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #11 June 20, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. Whether or not this happens noticeably on a MiniDV is what I'm wondering. No, there will be no loss in quality. The bits and the bytes and all that stuff stay the same. QuoteIt would obviously occur if the MiniDV was used for a long period of time, sure...the tape itself would degrade You don't end up with a degradation in picture quality like you do with VHS tapes. The tape does degrade, which can cause reliability problems... drop outs, etc. This is why we only use each tape once. Typically what I do is record more than I need (leave it running through my opening and maybe record my landing). Don't need either of those for 4-way video for example (I do keep them for tandem videos), so I rewind the tape back to where the team breaks off and start recording from that point on the next jump. So there is some overlap, recording over a previous recording for the first few seconds usually. But beyond that, when the tape is full, it's done. Recording jump after jump doesn't degrade the tape because the recorded part is just wound back up. Would really suck to record a tandem or something on an old, used tape and find that there are drop outs. Tapes are cheap enough... no need for that. I paid $2.90 each including shipping last time I bought them. Each tape holds about an hour. Hard drive camera would be cool if it worked, but then you'd run into problems when the drive is full. You'd have to stop in the middle of the day to dump the footage somewhere. Tapes are great because you can just pop a new one in. Solid state memory would be nice if you can swap memory cards. Other nice thing about both of those is no need to rewind... jump right where you want. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shunkka 0 #12 June 20, 2007 minidv - 2 euro 2 euro= 60 minutes 60 minutes = 45 - 50 normal skydives (with exit/no landing) 45-50 skydives = 1000 euro (average price 21/jump) i think we can afford to pay 2 euro at every 1000 ------------------------- "jump, have fun, pull" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #13 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteMiniDV is recorded onto tape which isn't what I would personally call truly digital though (since the information is recorded on tape and degradation can occur). Is there any noticeable quality difference between MiniDV and another option such as a camera with a hard drive? Not quite...DV tape, like DLT tape drives for computer, are entirely digital. There is no analog component to the tape system. It's all 1's and 0's. Degradation cannot occur. Corruption (just like on a hard drive) can occur, but that happens with anything digital. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #14 June 21, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. This isn't true. Yes, magnetic drop outs can and do occur due to shedding of magnetic particles or misaligned heads, but unlike analog formats (where drop outs also occur but are irretrievable), most digital storage mediums use what are know as "parity bits." These extra bits in the data stream are a sort of built in error correction whereby the playback device can exactly and mathematically replicate the bits that were lost. This happens all the time with digital tapes as well as digital disks (CD, DVD, etc.). It just happens so seamlessly that you don't even notice it. The digital data stream coming out of the playback device is an exact duplicate of the original digital data stream. What most people refer to (and notice) as drop outs are actually massive losses of data, including parity bits, which are so large that they cannot be replicated. I am not familiar with the actual data stream of a MiniDV video tape, but I know in the old days of CDs and DATs (remember them), they both recorded the same format (44.1kHz, 16-bit PWM), but the DATs actually had a longer data stream and included more parity bits because of the higher losses expected due to magnetic particle shedding. Yes, DV and MiniDV formats are pure digital. Just as digital as optical disks. And actually a less compressed, higher quality digital video data stream than DVD or hard drive camcorders. BTW, not to be a wise a@#, but I am hoping either your original question was just out of pure curiosity, or the jump numbers in your profile are incorrect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #15 June 21, 2007 Maybe he just wants to film landings. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #16 June 21, 2007 Quote minidv - 2 euro Can you tell me where can I get miniDV tapes for 2 Euros, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PharmerPhil 0 #14 June 21, 2007 QuoteThe minute you transfer it to something like a MiniDV (or definitely a standard audio or VHS cassette tape) it can lose massive amounts of quality. This isn't true. Yes, magnetic drop outs can and do occur due to shedding of magnetic particles or misaligned heads, but unlike analog formats (where drop outs also occur but are irretrievable), most digital storage mediums use what are know as "parity bits." These extra bits in the data stream are a sort of built in error correction whereby the playback device can exactly and mathematically replicate the bits that were lost. This happens all the time with digital tapes as well as digital disks (CD, DVD, etc.). It just happens so seamlessly that you don't even notice it. The digital data stream coming out of the playback device is an exact duplicate of the original digital data stream. What most people refer to (and notice) as drop outs are actually massive losses of data, including parity bits, which are so large that they cannot be replicated. I am not familiar with the actual data stream of a MiniDV video tape, but I know in the old days of CDs and DATs (remember them), they both recorded the same format (44.1kHz, 16-bit PWM), but the DATs actually had a longer data stream and included more parity bits because of the higher losses expected due to magnetic particle shedding. Yes, DV and MiniDV formats are pure digital. Just as digital as optical disks. And actually a less compressed, higher quality digital video data stream than DVD or hard drive camcorders. BTW, not to be a wise a@#, but I am hoping either your original question was just out of pure curiosity, or the jump numbers in your profile are incorrect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #15 June 21, 2007 Maybe he just wants to film landings. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 June 21, 2007 Quote minidv - 2 euro Can you tell me where can I get miniDV tapes for 2 Euros, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
