Used reserve question

[sundevil777 102]

Lighten up, just commenting on what seems to be accepted claims from PD, and repeated by the moderator.

edit - In fact, the reason I posted is because I don't accept the claims at face value

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[CRWBUDDHA 0]

Perhaps you will find the ability to go to the source ...

The FAA sets the rules and the maker's operate under them..........

It's their ball, their game and their rules.......Spend the time to get educated with them...........

Anything less will gain nothing and continue to broadcast fictional opinions as fact..........

If you really care about your gear, and how to use it,
always mindfull of maintaining the least possible risk, you might spend every possible moment getting your information from reliable published FAA approved sources of design and manufacture.

By the way, YOU are responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of your own equipment, by FAA Rules and Regulations..........Any Rigger who chooses to RECERTIFY AIRWORTHINESS as it may pertain to your equipment, operates under another set of FAA RULES and Regulations.........

These Regulations were not designed for your or any other skydivers convienence........they were designed and proven over hundreds of live operations over many years.......and following them will yield very consistent results.........

No matter what you may think,assume, presume or even choose to believe on any issue, doubt or question, the answers are found in the RULES and are very easily understood, when one remembers that 'YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT."

Good Luck and Good Hunting.......if you choose to persue the facts, with the Source, expect to be really glad you did...

CRWBUDDHA

[PhreeZone 20]

Proformance Textiles could probally help you out in that one. http://www.perftex.com/exatachute_specs.htm They have on file the increase in permebility after 20 laundries.

Soarcoat (ZP is made by them too) http://www.perftex.com/soarcoat_specs.htm

BTW... what did you pack to get your Lap master rigger rating?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[d604 0]

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Help again.

If it has been used as a main, can you use it as a reserve after that???

Second, why do you not trust it? Raven reserves are all over the place?

J.E.

Once a parachute has been used as a main it should never be used as a reserve, main parachutes get subject to a hole mess of tortures such as: being dragged, thrown into the back of a car trunk, step on, split on, slept on, left in the sun…

An exception maybe a test jump or intention cutaway, but those are for the most part a thing of the past.

I trust Ravens, I just finished hooking up a MR 150 for my wife, and in fact Ravens are among my top favourite reserves out there. As to why I would not jump my Raven 2 as a reserve see above…

Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[sundevil777 102]

As I stated earlier, it is PD's opinion on the longevity of reserves that is I am questioning.

Geez, if we can't speculate here, then where can we?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Jimbo 0]

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As I stated earlier, it is PD's opinion on the longevity of reserves that is I am questioning.

Maybe this is worth a read.

http://www.pia.com/piapubs/pia_position_on_a_180_day_repack.htm

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[DexterBase 1]

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Once a parachute has been used as a main it should never be used as a reserve, main parachutes get subject to a hole mess of tortures such as: being dragged, thrown into the back of a car trunk, step on, split on, slept on, left in the sun…

Damn dude... not even my BASE canopies get treated like that!

My skydiving mains get babied. If you take care of your gear it will take care of you. If you abuse your equipment, don't have your feelings hurt if it doesn't perform as desired.

[sundevil777 102]

Thanks for the link.

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From the article:
They also concluded that the handling during packing was much more detrimental to the parachute than the actual deployment and use.

So, one might conclude that it would be less detrimental to use your reserve before every repack!

How does this make sense? Since using a parachute requires it to be packed, it doesn't make sense to me. Anyone with more insight/evidence or just simple speculation?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Perhaps you would care to disclose the reputable published source, by Title, Article, Page and Paragraph that substantiates your claims of damage due to packing.

“Fabric permeability does not change while a canopy is packed, it changes as a result of use and handling.”
Pg 75, Vol II

Best I could do.

Hook

[d604 0]

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Once a parachute has been used as a main it should never be used as a reserve, main parachutes get subject to a hole mess of tortures such as: being dragged, thrown into the back of a car trunk, step on, split on, slept on, left in the sun…

Damn dude... not even my BASE canopies get treated like that!

My skydiving mains get babied. If you take care of your gear it will take care of you. If you abuse your equipment, don't have your feelings hurt if it doesn't perform as desired.

Ha don't think that I treat any of my mains this way, I've just seen many a skydiver not treat their parachute with respect.

Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[rigging65 0]

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If it has been used as a main, can you use it as a reserve after that???

No, once it's a main, it's a main. Guys used to jump Raven/Raven set ups (Raven Main and a matching Raven Reserve). When the main wore out, they'd get rid of it, put their reserve into their main tray and buy a new reserve. The original Ravens, Micro Ravens and Super Ravens (everything but the -Ms) have bridle attachment points on them so they can be used with a main D-bag.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[rigging65 0]

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Tell me this, are the limits on the canopy label the FAA's max or the manufacturers max?

Generally, it's the Mfgs. limits. PD reserves list the max loadings based on experience level, most others just give you one max loading.

Manuals often list out the FAA max limits, but the lower Mfg. limit over rides that FAA limit.

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And, it would be very hard to defend overload/overspeed opening damage to a manufacturer, FAA, or in court.

Why would this be hard? If you can prove the jumper was outside the spec. there are always other circumstances that can lead to failure. The canopy, when new, must meet the specs laid out...things can deteriorate over time...that's not something the Mfg. can control.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Ron 10]

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No, once it's a main, it's a main.

FAA? Canopy Maker? Theory of the "Magical" reserve? Where do you get this info from?

Not trying to be an ass, but I have never seen this written.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 20]

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=galloway+%22fuel+tanks%22+group:rec.skydiving&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=336C2782.6435%40precision.net&rnum=1

Interesting converstion from Rec. a few years back. Look at the Author...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

Well it does say:

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3)David S. Clarkson "...follow the manufacturer's instructions (It may
be used as one or the other [if FAA approved for use as a reserve] but
it is not to be used as a reserve if it has been intentionally jumped as
a main canopy. One familiarization jump is allowable prior to packing
for reserve use.)
Right, David, excellent observation. That comment in the Owner's
manual is intended to encourage our customers to exercise good common
sense in choosing which container to pack their Raven into... Notice it
says "not to be used"... does that mean it can be legally packed but not
legally deployed? (big troll here)

So in my opinion...If the manual says it can't be switched...then it should not be.

[Loud voice at Green Ramp]RIGGER???[/Loud voice at Green Ramp]

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rigging65 0]

As per the Mfg.

And I quote:
"A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve. You may, however, use a canopy which has been previously packed as a reserve as a main canopy. After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve"

This comes from Precision's manual, I don't have a PD manual on my desk, but you'll probably find something similar in their's as well.

Besides, does it really make sense to take chances with your reserve?

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Ron 10]

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Besides, does it really make sense to take chances with your reserve?

Nope, but at which point does a person need a new reserve?

I have one with 6 rides on it....I trust it, and my rigger is very good and I trust her (Plug for Sally).

I don't worry about it...But how many would you say?

FWIW..If the manual says no...then no.
If my rigger says no...then no.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rigging65 0]

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Nope, but at which point does a person need a new reserve?

There are tests to determine when you've got more porosity than what you want, but overall I'd say that a reserve is probably going to last longer than the length of most people's skydiving career (being that right now that's a average of about 7 yrs.).

Obviously the periodic inspections are designed to warn you if there might be a problem, but if you take care of her, she'll be with you probably as long as you want her to be.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[FliegendeWolf 0]

See, this is what I don't get.

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This led the Belgian Army to question their beliefs about their reserve parachutes, “which we assume(d) stay brand new forever.” In checking some reserves in their systems, they found porosity readings as high as 18 cfm in some areas of a parachute after only 30 repacks had been performed. A full 32% had porosity readings of more than 9cfm, with all parachutes tested having a porosity of at least 5 cfm in the center cell. The original mil specification, now a PIA specification, for the fabric used on this particular fabric requires 0-5 cfm when new. Among their conclusions was their standard practice of reusing a reserve canopy as a main without further checks had to be changed, and, “A reserve doesn’t stay a brand new canopy.” They also concluded that the idea of, “having a check up after (a certain number of) repacks is not a bad idea.” Note that the emphasis is on the number of repacks, not the period of elapsed time, because it is the handling during the repack that causes the wear.

They argue that there is a significant loss of porosity over a span of 30 repacks, but people jump (and presumably repack) their F-111 mains 1000+ times. So the concern over the loss of porosity after 30 repacks seems kind of silly to me when people are willing to repack the same material 1000 times. Unless there's a factor that I'm not aware of?

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[PhreeZone 20]

Abouth the only thing a F111 main with 1000 jumps is good for is a car cover, the poresity is so high its really hard to get a good landing out of one after that many repacks. Most F111 does'nt see much use past 600 jumps.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Fine, but that doesn't really change my point: 600 jumps is still significantly higher (2000%) than the 30 repacks that were causing noticable wear in the case cited. This suggests that whatever wear is being caused by 30 repacks is not problematic since the wear caused by 599 repacks (or whatever figure, doesn't really matter) of the same material is no concern when it's flown as a main.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[Jimbo 0]

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Fine, but that doesn't really change my point: 600 jumps is still significantly higher (2000%) than the 30 repacks that were causing noticable wear in the case cited. This suggests that whatever wear is being caused by 30 repacks is not problematic since the wear caused by 599 repacks (or whatever figure, doesn't really matter) of the same material is no concern when it's flown as a main.

What don't you get? We hold our reserves to significantly higher standards than we hold our mains.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

If you don't trust an F-111 canopy to deploy and land properly after 30 pack jobs as a reserve, you have no business trusting an F-111 canopy to deploy and land properly after 600 pack jobs as a main.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[riggerrob 643]

What don't you get? We hold our reserves to significantly higher standards than we hold our mains.

-
Jim

[PhreeZone 20]

>Frankly if someone uses their reserve more than 5 times, I get deeply suspicious.

Don't hang around CRW dawgs then

Mains are designed to be discarded... thats why there is a release system. Reserves don't go anywhere so they have to be to a higher level then the main.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com