Offering DVD to Tandems

[Chrissay 0]

I am hoping to get some feedback on how how different dz's have their video concession setup for DVD's. I have read through here and gotten some great info, I'm also interested to know what models people are using.

Here is our current setup--We edit on two Dell's which are setup with Adobe Premier Pro, they are linked together so that you can capture simultaneously and toggle back and forth between the two computers. We edit the video right-away and give it to the tandem customer before they leave. We tend to have an issue with time when we have three or four tandem video on the load because then the last tandem person could wait up to 40 minutes or so for their video. Most don't care, but you do get the occassional person who has to get somewhere now, and can't wait any longer (of course we ship it to them if we absolutely have to)

So for next year, we plan to purchase one more Dell for editing. I know that 3 computers for editing sounds excessive, but we get such a wonderful product this way that we are willing to spend the money to keep our product one of the best in the area. Only 2 out of the 3 computers will have DVD capability to start. Here are my questions:

Is it better to get a dvd burner for each computer tower or get a dvd recorder. Is one faster then the other? I have read also that Pro has a DVD option, I have not been able to test that yet, especially since right now I don't have a burner to test it on, but how well does that work?
Currently we capture the video using a camera (pc-109), we really don't like this camera for editing due to the docking station so we are looking at different options. I want to be able to have two capture devices available so I was thinking about selling the pc-109 and buying two of the HC Sony series. But I think I would rather have a mini-DV player, can anyone recommend a good one of those? I have looked before and they were way expensive, but by the time we buy two cameras, it may just equal out to the same price.
From the info I have read, it seems that DVD-R is compatable with most DVD players, is this still true? I read on here that before the customer opts for the DVD option, the DZ has a list of DVD players the DVD won't work on, that's a great idea. Also for labels, last I heard some labels will 'break down' after time and cause the DVD to go off balance and not play, is there a nice way to package the DVD's? At some point we want to set up the DVD's with a menu also that goes into some detail about becoming a licensed skydiver and adding extra footage on the DVD.

thanks for any info y'all can provide, I'm hoping to avoid some 'pains' that other people experienced when they started offering DVD at their DZ.

[dragon2 2]

We now have inktjet printable dvd-r's, which give the customer a nice looking dvd package. I just sit there all afternoon printing a stack of dvd's.

There are also thermal printable dvd's but the thermal printers only print one color at a time and only on select sports on the dvd, so no full color full printed dvd. And I think these need to be printed after burning them, not sure about that.

For large volumes you could get the dvd's done professionally which is nicer but our DZ is too small for that.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[lowpullin1 0]

My DZ uses a DVD recorder, philps i believe, with a audio/video mixer board. The recorder works like a TiVO, so we just record it to the Hard Drive on the recorder and then burn it to DVD. It tends to be faster than a PC because there is no Rendering time.

"It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys."
My Website

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"From the info I have read, it seems that DVD-R is compatable with most DVD players, is this still true?"

If its a big deal, buy a dvd+/- compatible burner, eg the Sony DRU 700 or 710. If a DVD recorder is the way to go for you, you can get similar dual compatibility sets these days, eg Sony (again!
I'm not sure how two firewire capture devices would work, I've tried before and couldn't get the second one to be recognised, but that was an old system.

You might want to look at capturing in mpeg format, and then editing that format, I don't know if rendering time is bugging you, but have a think about the stuff on the ADS site.
http://www.adstech.com/products/intro/products.asp

I'm not sure about editing in 'dvd format' but am looking into it for various other projects I have on the go right now.

Let us know how you get on.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[lewmonst 0]

You are already doing non-linear editting, so I doubt I'd convince you to switch over. But, for tandem videos, I'm a huge fan of linear editting. It takes around 6 minutes, the length of the video, and there's no computer, no rendering time, no capture time, etc. Our product is just as good as if it came from the computer because we're effective at using the mixing board, adding a few effects and mixing music appropriately, and using a few still captures. No need for too many effects, it detracts from the video. We just use a DVD recorder just like a VCR, hit record and edit realtime using a mixing board. On busy saturdays, we have a dedicated editor, that can easily do 50+ tandem videos on the one set-up. Our DVD's come with a leader pre-recorded that is basically a promotion of the dz and skydiving, eye candy clips... In the title menu, the customer can chose to watch it or skip it and go straight to their video.

As for a mini-DV player, they are more expensive than a camera but are far more robust for extensive use of playback. I don't know how many videos you do in a week, but if you're really hard on your capture device, the mini-DV player will last longer than a camera.

That may not help you with your computers set-up, but the DVD recorder with mixer is just the easiest, fastest way to go.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[diverds 0]

Quote

You might want to look at capturing in mpeg format, and then editing that format

When you bring an mpeg into Premiere Pro it is transcoded to DV for editing so you would still have to transcode it again for output to a dvd. It's above my head but has something to do with the mpeg compression loosing quality when rendered multiple times.

I'm with Lew on this one. Linear editing is much easier for tandem videos but since you are already set up for non-linear you may want to check out Adobe Encore for your DVD authoring. It's true that you can burn a DVD right from Premier Pro but your options are very limited. Encore gives you all the flexibility for DVD authoring that Premiere gives you for editing.

edited to add Encore info.

Skydive Radio

[dragon2 2]

You having much luck with Encore? I have had to re-do the 2 big projects I did in it every once in a while, because the project couldn't be opened "missing file" but not saying which file (and me haven't moved/deleted/renamed/... nothing), bye bye project

This happened in version 1 and in 1.5 too. I like Adobe stuff, but man this software has got to go. Re-doing the menus and timelines every time is not good for my blood pressure!
I started to save the entire project w/ new names after every change so I wouldn't lose too much. Then finished the DVD. Then deleted all the back-ups and back-up the still working project and test it again, still works. Sent off the master DVD. Then a couple of weeks later somebody asks for a preview DVD. So I try to open the project. NOPE. (....beep....)

There's other people on the 'net with this same problem. This software seriously needs debugging!!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Chrissay 0]

Thank you everyone for your input!

dragon2--printing right right on the dvd's sounds like a great idea, I will definately look into that.

nacmacfeegle--thanks for the model numbers I will look into those and that website. Rendering time is an issue and we are also going to add more memory to the computers to speed that up

lewmonst--our dz use to use a mixing board a few years ago, the product wasn't as good as the non-linear editing, it was probably old equipment though and not used effectively. It sounds like you guys are making a great product though. I personally have never used one. At this point though, I don't see us going to linear editing. Most of the staff makes short videos frequently so I guess that is why it is second nature to use Premier, etc. Our videographers have it so easy, we always have a dedicated editor, so alls they have to do is throw a tape at the editor and they are done with it! Thanks for the ideas on what to include on the dvd.

diverds--thanks for the Encore info, I will look into that as well!

[diverds 0]

Quote

You having much luck with Encore?

I have not had any of the problems you mentioned. Thats really a bummer that it's not working for you. I am using version 1.5 and have had good luck with it.

Skydive Radio

[skinnyshrek 0]

-R is the most compatable. I've tried both and -R is the way to go. Just my 2 cents worth

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Snowflake 0]

What do you mean by

Quote

Currently we capture the video using a camera (pc-109), we really don't like this camera for editing due to the docking station so we are looking at different options. I want to be able to have two capture devices available ........

Do you mean you want two inputs or do you mean a device to dump to for someone else to edit?

As far as buying a stand alone burner vs an internal dvd burner for your comp, if the main consideration is speed a stand alone is the way to go.

I have to agree with Lew on this though. I've been trying to figure a way to make editing on a computer faster then with a board and I still haven't. In the time it takes to capture the footage to the comp you could almost be done on a linear board

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Two words: linear editing. We have three identical stations setup with digital boards, DVD burners, and combo VHS/DVD recorders. It takes us exactly the same amount of time to burn a DVD (and a stills DVD) as it does to make a VHS tape. We do vastly more DVD's these days than VHS.

No firewire needed with this combo, therefore no need for my PC 109 to ever sit in it's docking cradle except at the end of the day when I sit it there to charge off of my helmet.

Chuck

[Chrissay 0]

Quote

What do you mean by

Quote

Currently we capture the video using a camera (pc-109), we really don't like this camera for editing due to the docking station so we are looking at different options. I want to be able to have two capture devices available ........

Do you mean you want two inputs or do you mean a device to dump to for someone else to edit?

Right now we have two computers networked together so we have one monitor and two towers so we can capture simultaneously. When we capture simultaneously we hook up two cameras, but I was wondering if maybe a dv player would have that capability.

Quote

As far as buying a stand alone burner vs an internal dvd burner for your comp, if the main consideration is speed a stand alone is the way to go.

Do you recommend a particular brand/model?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"In the time it takes to capture the footage to the comp you could almost be done on a linear board "

This will always be the case John, as Chuck rightly points out, linear editing is inherently faster for relatively short movies like tandems.
Where Non Linear wins, is making longer movies, its more accurate, and if you make a mistake, you don't have to start over.

I reckon a hybrid solution is probably ideal, eg you make a kick ass leader from your stock footage, nice titles, DZ contact details etc, on an NLE suite, then you mix it with a traditional linear board for the Tandem's actual footage.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Zoter 0]

Quote

You having much luck with Encore?

hmmm....me neither....I'm a big Adobe fan but didnt think this one is much cop.
Can I suggest/recommend Sony DVD Architect....? its a very powerful DVD authoring tool......and an absolute doddle to use compared to Encore ( I have used both )...its so easy to use it might help reduce your 'working time' if you are going to use a NLE system.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

I reckon a hybrid solution is probably ideal, eg you make a kick ass leader from your stock footage, nice titles, DZ contact details etc, on an NLE suite, then you mix it with a traditional linear board for the Tandem's actual footage.

That is exactly the process we use here at Raeford.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Quote

I reckon a hybrid solution is probably ideal, eg you make a kick ass leader from your stock footage, nice titles, DZ contact details etc, on an NLE suite, then you mix it with a traditional linear board for the Tandem's actual footage.

That is exactly the process we use here at Raeford.

Same thing at Chicagoland. If you want to be in any way efficient when editing, you simply must have a standard leader ready to go - Chicagolands is even already burned to the disk. Then edit the tandem itself on a good linear board.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Snowflake 0]

Quote

Right now we have two computers networked together so we have one monitor and two towers so we can capture simultaneously. When we capture simultaneously we hook up two cameras, but I was wondering if maybe a dv player would have that capability.

Well I'm kinda slow and can't visualize what that accomplishes. I was gonna suggest a firewire hub, but I don't know if thats what you need or if it'll work

We use a Phillips DVD burner and I'm not sure it'll do what you want.

[Snowflake 0]

Dave and Chuck we have a DVD that has the leader and titles on it we run that then dub the video on a linear board. My thought is that if you ran a batch capture and had it thrown in a template the time is even, but then you have to render and output. Also if you muff any cuts it'll screw the batch capture and you have to manually edit. One of these days I'll figure out how to make that horse talk.........maybe

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"My thought is that if you ran a batch capture and had it thrown in a template the time is even, but then you have to render and output."
Yeppers John, thats it in essence, an NLE suite, even a fast one with a great (not just good) operator has to manipulate the clips in real time at least twice, once to get it on, once to get it off the pooter.
A good linear board editor can do it one pass.

Good chatting with you again though. I saw some of the stuff you were making for the Gravity Rats/SSM, etc a while back, looked prettty good to me.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[pope 0]

I'm working on a script for iMovie that will enable you to plug in via firewire, automatically sense the cuts you made during your filming, and seperate each into a template video in iMovie. Once you have captured the video to the computer, the camera is free to fly again, the edit is done for you, and all you need to do is burn the DVD. The whole process should take about 13-15 minutes, only 5 of which you actually need to be there, freeing you up to pack, etc.
The benefits are obvious, the drawbacks are that you need to shoot SPECIFICALLY to edit that way, every time. It doesn't work if there are more clips than the pre-made template is ready to accept. That being said, you could create 5 or 10 different templates so the videos don't turn out *exactly* like all the others...theme each a bit differently.

pope

[kansasskydiver 0]

Here's from my experience making tandem videos and other videos.

If you're looking at getting a DVD set up and want to hand the DVD to the customer, stay away from the DVD burner on the computer. I'm pretty proficient in Premiere Pro and the rendering time and compiling time it'll take to convert it to an mpg or mv2 file is not going to be sutible for what you're trying to do, plus the 3-4 mins to burn the DVD.

What I would do in your situation is this:

Run the EXACT same setup as you're running now, replace the vcr with a 1x dvd burner. Philips makes a great brand btw, have to find the model. Have 2 cameras that you can run to it. One with a lead in tape on it that you send to the dvd recorder, put that as track one, then run the video straight from the computer, through the camcorder via firewire, to the dvd recorder as track 2. hit record and you're done. takes just as long as it would for a vhs.

Someone said up top that they were printing DVD. I HIGHLY recommend doing so. There is one printer on the market, Epson R200, about 80 bucks online or staples that prints very high quality photos at to special dvd-r-pw disks. You can get the disk for about 40 cents each. Just for an idea. I printed 100 DVDs and 50 covers, all in photo quality mode and 2000 business cards.. I still have about a quarter of the ink cartridges left.

In the end, linear is the best way to go, but you have to be good at it.

Here's the printer link, i'll get the links to the recorder and the site i bought all my printable dvd's in the morning

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=28-103-160&depa=0

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[AndyMan 7]

I spent some time editing last year.

The process was that a camera flyer would drop into the editing booth, drop off a tape, and give me the students name. The camera flyer would spend less than a minute doing this. Then he'd go pack, and rince/repeat for the next student on the next load.

The camera flyer is tied up for less than a minute. The camera flyers gear is never tied up.

I, as the editor, would take the tape and drop it into an old PC9 with the lens ripped off, which I'd use for playback. I'd hit 'record' on the DVD recorder, hit 'play' on the PC9, and 'play' on the CD player, and create a new chapter on the DVD. The stock 'leader' had already been burned to the DVD. I'd use the editing board to mix the music and audio track, and a few standard special effects - like a grabbing a snap-shot of the exit and fades..

The entire editing process would be done in real time, taking no longer than the playback of the jump - about 3 minutes each plus another 2 minutes to finalize. With one editor, one editing board working full time we could easily keep up with our Otter doing 4 tandems every 20 minutes. On days when we were flying two Otters, we'd pull a second editing station and do 8 DVDs every 20 minutes.

Using a linear editing system, we'd do a full edit in 5 minutes, including finalizing. We'd never tie up the cameraman or camera gear for more than a minute, and allow the tandem operation to turn tandems as quickly as they could.

I can not possibly imagine doing anything similar using a PC based non-linear system. No matter how efficiently you create your macro's, it will always take longer since you've taken two steps that I do at the same time, and do them one after another. You've got a significantly larger hardware investment that takes longer to produce the same product.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kansasskydiver 0]

What's the total playback time of the video?

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[AndyMan 7]

My memory is failing me... I'm not sure how long the stock leader is.

Each videographer has a different style. In addition to the editing, I also shot tandem video myself. Here's how I break it down.... Others may do it differently.

I start with a ground interview which lasts about a minute, a few transition shots of walking up to the airplane, about a minute of airplane antics and another brief interview. The exit and freefall takes about a minute. The landing, then another short interview with a few "wooHoo's"! If I were to guess, I'd say that probably makes it about 4-5 minutes of footage for the jump, which is what needs to be edited.

I like them short so they're not boring. Others are free to disagree. We've never had a complaint that they're "too short".

Now that I think about it, my estimates in the previous post would have been short. Total editing time is the length of the video (since it's done in realtime) + 2 minutes for finalizing.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.