BlakeB 0 #1 March 28, 2004 Hi, this summer I went on my first skydive and now have the 'bug'.. I am thinking about a career as a skydiving cameraman... what kind of wage does a commercial skydiver (cameraman in particular) pull in? I am looking at studying for the diploma in commercial skydiving http://www.skydiving.co.nz/skydiving-diploma.php cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whirlwind 0 #2 March 28, 2004 Hi Blake , look carefully at what you get when you sign up for that course , it does not say that it makes you into a camera person , with around 200 jumps included in the price , most of them solo's, I would imagine you would need a lot more additional training and jumps to be able to be a camera flyer , I have heard that quite a few people were quite disgruntled with the course. Before you sign up I would ask for information on how many students get camera jobs after the course , and how long they have to wait - rumor has it that many people fail to get employed as cameramen at dz's in the country and are just used as free labour , packing etc on the work experience part of the course. For the cost of this course you could probably get some pretty good training in the US or somewhere else , where you could learn some decent flying skills. good luck in your future skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #3 March 28, 2004 It is extremely difficult to earn a wage better than marginal -- especially if you're ONLY going to be a camera flyer. If you had a "real job" during the week and then flew camera on the weekends for fun and supplimental income, it could be a little profitable, but in all honesty, most non-full-time camera flyers only break even considering all of the money they put into gear and whatnot. There are -perhaps- a dozen or so camera flyers on the entire planet, that are doing "well" and all of those have been in the sport for many years and have a huge bag of tricks and skills that have gotten them work in commercials and movies. Again, being honest, your chances for breaking into that field is close to those of winning the lottery. I'm not trying to put you off your dreams, but you should be realistic and know that you'd have a LONG road ahead of you before you'd be able to fully support yourself by only camera flying. Most folks that I know that skydive for a living have several skills that they are able to market at any one time. You'd be far more valuable to a "school" if you were also an AFF and tandem instructor as well as a camera flyer. Being a packer or rigger also helps. Basically, you want to be able to do as much as possible. If somewhere along the road you pick up a medal or two -- all the better -- you can coach.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #4 March 28, 2004 most cameramen never pay off their camera equipment... and the some of the best cameramen are in loads of debt. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverds 0 #5 March 28, 2004 A wise man once said "If you want to make a small fortune in the skydiving business, start with a large one". Skydive Radio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydog 2 #6 March 28, 2004 QuoteHi Blake , look carefully at what you get when you sign up for that course , it does not say that it makes you into a camera person , with around 200 jumps included in the price , most of them solo's, I would imagine you would need a lot more additional training and jumps to be able to be a camera flyer , I have heard that quite a few people were quite disgruntled with the course. Before you sign up I would ask for information on how many students get camera jobs after the course , and how long they have to wait - rumor has it that many people fail to get employed as cameramen at dz's in the country and are just used as free labour , packing etc on the work experience part of the course. For the cost of this course you could probably get some pretty good training in the US or somewhere else , where you could learn some decent flying skills. good luck in your future skydiving The trouble is with the "someone said things..." that it is hard to find that someone, and get the low down on what they really said. Having just come back from NZ and Christchurch Parachute School, this is what I KNOW. The students are taught, by professional instructors, in all aspects of skydiving. That ranging from the jumps through to DZ management, manifesting, video editing etc. The majority of their jumps are not solo's they are usually coached jumps, and as they progress relative jumps with each other. (dependant on skills etc). As for camera work they are coached on all aspects of camera work from camera kit, sighting etc through to the jump and in air skills etc. They are supervised at every stage of their progression and all materials are made available to them. They have recently purchased 2 Canon 300D's for the students to use and are in the process of setting up a multimedia suite for them. The 2 camera people working full time on the tandem side of the DZ are ex students, and I can vouch for their skill and professionalism. As for the others I know that if you ring queenstown or taupo that they have camera people who were on the course. Rumour is a great thing but it is unsubstantiated and should be treated as such. If you want some real answers then feel free to PM me. And as for "save your money and jump here" arguement........ at which DZ can you get one-on-one tuition, coaching and personal help on a daily basis? Not many I would suspect. Plus the fact they are in NZ, land of the LOTR, and its a fantastic place. So even if the students dont wish to take up full time employment when they leave the course, at least they will have had the experience and the initial instruction to make them better at what they want to do when set against their peers who have the same number of jumps. Remember this is a qualification, supported by the NZ government, and is subject to the same auditing process as any other subject. It just so hapens to be in skydiving......... Please stop the "rumour has it" malarky. BrynJourney not destination..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark135 0 #7 March 28, 2004 QuoteIf you had a "real job" during the week and then flew camera on the weekends for fun and supplimental income, it could be a little profitable, but in all honesty, most non-full-time camera flyers only break even considering all of the money they put into gear and whatnot I have a good deal of respect for Quade as a camera person, although I have never met him. There are other more experianced camera persons than me on this board, However.... I have to disagree with the "break even" thing. It hase been my experiance, running camera for 4-5 years now that camera people do allright. now I have added a tandem rating to my "skills" and I do pretty damn good as a weekend warrior. Fact is, I make more money at the dz than I do at my job (on a daily basis not hourly) Now my wife is flying camera and it is not unusual for us to bring home 5-600$ for a decent weekend. I dont stick a lot of money into my gear. I dont have the latest and greatest digital vid or digital cam. I use my trusty old trv 11 and canon rebel. I use a protec for a camera helmet (OH MY GOD!) The protec with its smaller than i normally would use lining fits my head very tight and with the chin strap good and tight i have no camera shake. And i will put my video up with anyones in the "non-professional" class So my answer would be yes to making a living. I guess it depends on what you consider "marginal" I will admit that if i were "full-time" i would buy better equipment. It's not the gear, It's the skill. All above opinions are just that. After all I'm just an anonymous voice on the internet (and to lazy to use spell check)_______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #8 March 28, 2004 QuoteI have to disagree with the "break even" thing. It hase been my experiance, running camera for 4-5 years now that camera people do allright. Alot has to do with the cost of living where people are. Compare quade in the LA area (very high cost of living) and Michigan. One way to compare cost of living is to just look at the price of milk and bread in a particular city. It really -does- equate to cost of living ratio. Where I live (Southern CA) bread is about $3/loaf and milk $2.75. And I'm not in LA (2 hours out and a lower cost than quade's). (wonder what Hawaii is nowadays...use to be 2-3 times that). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #9 March 28, 2004 Do the math. A digital stills with DVD package nets me $40, less $5 for a pack job. You are young so pack your own canopy! $25 for a tandem, $25 for an AFF. To continue to get work your work must be good. I have been extraordinarily blessed to have been given the nod by folks on many occasions, but if I had screwed up, that ends. Your reputation will take a while to establish, but you must never screw the pooch if you want to keep getting work. That takes good gear. Thousands of dollars of good gear. A digital video for about $600 on the cheap, and digital SLR for about the same. A solid platform for those is usually not a protec, but I've seen that work. I'm lucky again in that I don't have to buy editing gear but depending on your DZ you may have to get that too. Before that you need at least 200 jumps where you master RW. I know guys freefly tandems, but I just don't think those results are as good. Plus, a good gig is hooking up a 4 way camera slot, and you can't do that in a sit. I'm on a generous pension that includes family healthcare. That's how I can do it. The young guy that I work with, who is full time, lives in a dead RV on the DZ. No phone. No running water. I think it could be done, but you'll need all your ratings, Tandem, AFF, rigger, to keep making some money when it's raining. Good luck, save hard, be good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #10 March 28, 2004 Ok, well, let's just review a couple of words. I usually use a bunch of qualifiers as to not speak in absolutes. Most means >50% and <100%. I said "most non-full-time camera flyers" and I still believe that's true. There may be a large number of camera flyers out there that can bring home some supplimental income or run their business as a tax write off to make their skydiving more affordable, but I really do believe that most non-full-time camera flyers are in the break even or less mode. Remember when figuring your business expenses to consider everything: gas going to and from the DZ, rig repacks and repairs, video tape and the list goes on and on. You said: Quote Fact is, I make more money at the dz than I do at my job (on a daily basis not hourly) Now my wife is flying camera and it is not unusual for us to bring home 5-600$ for a decent weekend. So, lemme see . . . $600/2 = 300 per person / 2 days = $150 per day per person. That's not bad, but for me and considering all my operating expenses over the course of an entire year, I really don't think that would make much of a dent in my rent. So, yeah, a bit of supplimental income, based on those numbers, but certainly not enough to live off of.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites motherhucker 0 #11 March 28, 2004 I agree with deuce. I would recommend studying film/photography at a REAL university, developing your skills as a photographer/videographer, and concurrently learning to skydive. I would venture to guess that less than half of the world's freefall photographers ACTUALLY know what an F-stop represents and how to use it. The benefit of having skills you can use outside of skydiving should be crystal anyhow, but what if you get hurt? How screwed are you then? You can learn everything that school will teach you and more for free in the reality of the skydiving world--just by asking questions, finding a mentor, and always being humble and ready to learn more. Being a good freefall photographer is much more than knowing the hows and whys--In the words of Richard Bach, it's being there. and for that you need to learn how to fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlakeB 0 #12 March 30, 2004 Yeah thanks guys, I appreciate the comments... it's funny cos it just so happens that i was also thinking about doing a film-makers course at the nz film academy. so i could get some skills there first. the main concern with the skydiving course is the cost... it makes it easier being a government subsidised course, but to be able to use those skills gained to pay it off? also, would it cost the same to do the usual 'learn to skydive' course and do the 200 'experience' jumps at any ole dz? cheers again guys Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whirlwind 0 #13 March 30, 2004 If your main concern is the cost and I think for students going over to New Zealand from overseas is $15,000 that's about $9,000 US. I'd take alook at these sites, http://www.skydiveaz.com http://www.skydivespacecenter.com [url] www.skydivedeland.com Who I think offer much better value for money. Good one on one coaching, fantastic weather. Lot's of camera advise I think alot of days could be spent on the ground in Christchurch, being so close to the sea it's famous for it's strong winds coming of the sea. I've met some guys who tried to do there AFF there and gave up cause of the weather. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #14 July 17, 2004 skydog, well i was on the first course. i totally think the course was really good for lectures as we were taught alot on this course and tested on everything we were taught. Aprt from myself only one other person passed aff first time each jump. We were all very lucky to be introduced to skydiving. Were also very unlucky to have to jump all day. this sounds like a good thing right but once we had our license we had to jump non stop, we could not even stop jumping then packing then jumping even for a lunch break. when you have got 20 jumps in a month and then you are forced to do 8-10 jumps a day without a break or you will lose jumps that you have paid for, well this is going to course accidents right. Well my mate hit the ground under a rotatiing mal, he survived and jumped a year later when everything was glued togethor again. I got hung up on a door of the plane and lucy the door broke cause i was hanging there with my lines coming out and then there were another 11 mals. Well i think this happened cause we were so new to the scene and forced to jump apack all day or lose money and fail the course. we started to be so tired that our pack jobs were turning to shit!. so what happens, half the course failed or were kicked off cause they paid 7500nzd for the course but then still owe a couple of hundred. i know guys who got ripped a hundred dollars. It is very proffesional course aprt from these things and also maybe that they were buying 15 year old rigs and selling them with a big profit on top. maybe they have ironed out the flaws from the first course but i am being told by other course graduates that their class was having the same problems. These people are money hungry and and offering jobs. but now 3 years into the course there are to many skydivers out there who thought they would get a job out of this but there is just not the work for all these graduates. I will come down hard on this course because alot of us got ripped off. I hate these people that call them self skydivers but then rip us off. Arent we all meant to be family?????? but i will say one thing. i am very thankful to them for getting me into skydiving. Bigway. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BETO74 0 #15 July 17, 2004 What did you just call me ???? did Ihear my name???http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites coolkiwi 0 #16 July 17, 2004 I agree , that course is a complete rip off . I did the fourth course , and it was still a shambles. The worst part of it is the advertising leads you to believe that you will be qualified as a cameraman when you complete the course. A bit naive I know , not to check this out properly , but their advertising and advice is really slick, and then you have already paid thousands for the course and gear they sell ,before you realise that you need heaps more experience than this course offers . There doesnt seem to be many camera jobs in NZ anyway , even for people with experience. ITS A BIG MONEY GRABBING CON I am now enjoying my new career in a fast food outlet , to pay of my student loans - at least they dont give you false expectations in this career Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jason_hunt 0 #17 July 22, 2004 Hi all, I have been following this posting with great interest, noting what you all have had to say. Essentially I'm looking at this from the same angle as BlakeB i.e. newbie wanting to do as much research upfront before deciding Yes or No on whether to enroll on the Christchurch course (or other course). I'd really love any feedback you guys might have on the following questions: 1. I talked with the Christchurch course marketing people. Asked them what is the typical wage rate for camera operators in NZ. Was told $25k rising to $45k depending on where in NZ one works. Does this equate with your work place experiences? 2. Read Bigways comments and took due note. Is it the case that there are too many students per course with an associated increase in potential accidents due to doing too much in to limited a timeframe? 3. Following on from this, as BlakeB alluded to, would one be better off doing an AFF course then paying for the additional 175+ jumps: this way one can gaurantee 1 to 1 supervision as much as possible? 4. Also, I've been talking with a guy who runs a DZ - would not serve any purpose to say where in NZ. He says he has had some Christchurch graduates on trial and did not in all honesty think they were technically adept enough to work full time in a DZ. Again I offer this comment as something I'd like feedback on-not as a direct criticism. 5. To refer to a previous post, is there a real risk of too many cooks spoiling this particular broth i.e. if the course churns out grads almost 4 times per year, can the market sustain all these new entrants? I understand Skydogs valid comments about Queenstown and Taupo - I guess I'm trying to gauge just how flexible the market is. 6. Guess I've saved the best til last - here's where I bring in the "this is what I heard" hearsay comment :) Whilst touring NZ I did a tandem on a DZ and was chatting to a (rather fetching) young lady who works in said DZ. She said - here we go! - that the tandem instructors earn serious money. In the order of thousands per weeks in peak season as the more they tandem the more they get paid. Valid statement or utter waffle - discuss :) As said earlier, any and all replies to this are most welcome. Regards, Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yeehaa 0 #18 July 23, 2004 I am currently doing this course. I agree with some of the stuff that has been said about it. In the past it was shocking, and it failed to deliver what it offered. Due to changes that have been made (most are too late to really help my intake) the course is goin to be far better in the future. That said it has taken far too long to get the problems ironed out. I seriously believe that in about six months this course will be awesome. I stand to gain nothing by saying anything good about this course and don't get me wrong I am super pissed about certain things. What I'm trying to say is that its goin in the right direction now (finally). If you want to know more about how I have formulated my opinions feel free to pm me.Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #19 July 23, 2004 alright, what is being said about this course, problems being ironed out/? well i was saying that when i was on the course and i was on the first one ever! we only had 16 students so there was not to many of us. during our course there was only i class for the whole year(16 of us). 25k to 45k per year. well if you go to taupo you will earn 500-1000nzdolaars per day! this is every jumping day. if you are a tandem master. christchurch you want get this, queenstown you will get a bit. I take it the guy that one of you were talking to owns a dz, well that must be howard, and he is a dickhead. I would like to know what dz you were talking about. i tell you waht the students that come out are well trained and trained ecspecially for commercial dropzones so who ever said that can piss right off. we go to class and learn meteorology, and have an exam on that and 40 other lectures. you get your first aid, you learn how to deal with the media and when you come out of this course you are extremley safe in the plane, you learn alot about safety. The course is 7,500nzd for a kiwi but the course also gets an extra 5000nzd from the govt. per student. This is a rip off but you do get a student loan. if you complete the course well you will get a brilliant job at the end of it. If you owe them money they WILL kick you out. They can be real money hungry assholes but on the flip side the prople that run the course i think are really nice people! i dont get on with them but they are good people if it is not about money. at this course you will make some great friends and do more jumping in a year than some people will do in five years, i mean you wake up to go to school every day to jump out of planes. I hear they have a new turbine, well this would be great. If you want to get in the debt for skydiving and want a carrer well this is the course for you. but if you have the money in your pocket and want to do it for a sport well got ot your local dz and pay for your jumps. When you come out of this fast-carrer path to skydiving you are ashamed to say you were on the course. I will reccomend this course if you want to get indebt with student loan and can put up with politics but if you cant handle this, do not go. Buy your own gear do not buy it from them as they make money off you whenever they can. You will love this course and hate it. These problems that are going to be ironed out......well stop dreaming, they have been there since i was there. Once again It is a great course but watch your money and dont piss the owners off as they can make skydiving in new zealand impossible for you, a couple of the guys from my course can not jump anywhere in new zealand they owed them money and have stoped them from getting licenses. these people are very connected in the industry of new zealand. Good luck to you if you do the course and i trust one thing, when you come out of it you will be able to earn alot of money and you will be a very safe skydiver. On my 60th jump they took me through my high altitude course and then took me to 18,000ft over queenstown, this was awesome!!!! peace all! .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #20 July 23, 2004 by the way wirlwind, dont speak out of your ass, most of the jumps are NOT solo's. after your aff you do 10 coach jumps and then your jumps are all with anywhere from 2-10 people formations. I did this course and only did a solo when i wanted to. this course also has one of the best free flyers in new zealand. francis b jackson, he is the freefly coach and pete corbett, great safety officer is an excellent jumpmaster. dont say what you dont know. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #21 July 23, 2004 one other thing in new zealand, there is about 200 people who work on a DZ. most dz;s, there is ony 12 will do around 80 to 130 tandem passenger a day to all the back packers who come to new zealand just to skydive and bunjee jump as new zealand is the adventure capital of the world...home of aj hackett, black water rafting. camera men at good dz'z there get 50 dollars a jump, they get paid the same as tandem masters in auckland. you will do 10-20 jumps on a jumping day getting paid 50 bucks a jump. if you only do 5-7 jumps in a day that is classed as a bad day. that is still 250-350 nz dollars a day. sure there are dz's that arent this busy as well. at taupo and queenstown and auckland there is anywhere from 5-12 camera men at each dz. but you still do a shit load of jumping. this course will set you up if you want it to. remember at most of the dz's they provide free accomodation for workers. if not a room in a flat will cost you 50 dollars a week. in new zealand you need about 150 dollars a week to live cheaply. i have been on this course and know new zealand skydiving well as i have done alot of marketing in the skydiving industry. i have good and bad things to say about this course. if you want honest answers pm me. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yeehaa 0 #22 July 24, 2004 francis isnt there at the moment, I have never jumped with him. pete corbitt is no longer the course director. you do do a large number of solos but that is being changed I think. the new course director is making many changes - trying to give us skills that are useful to commercial dzs, not just teaching us to turn points like in the past. yes u don't want to piss anyone off, I think this goes for skydiving in general - its a small world. as for the gear they sell you mine is fine and it wasn't sold to me by them as such. It was sold to me by a separate company owned and run by people that work there (a tandem master and a pilot). Its called rigmart.com go have a look there if you like. Sure they will charge a finders fee but they won't sell it to you if they think it is shite. I have actually seen them send stuff back to its owner because it was over pirced or crappy. thats all I got time for. jason hunt you got mailLife does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skibumhass 0 #23 July 25, 2004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yeehaa 0 #24 July 26, 2004 yes if you get hurt in some places you are screwed. in my country we have something called ACC, Accident Compensation Csomething that pays you %80 of your wages or somethingl ike that until you are healed and able to work again. Cool aye! Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikee 0 #25 August 5, 2004 hi everyone..iwas on the first Christchurch Parachute Shcool course also.for me it was a great way to get into skydiving.the owners steve and kirsty were honest and up front from the start never promising jobs but a great introduction to the industry.as for ripping people off thats the load of crap.people not wanting to pay for equipment or gear rental was the problem.2 people left due to being underfunded(not enough cash).also failing the course was pretty hard to do as there were always staff willing to go out of there way to help you pass levels if required.people getting kicked off is rubbish. few others failed for not handing in assignments.(fair enough i say).they still keep there skydive licence though.as for 11 mals more like 5.alot you say.one person did ride a rotating mal into the ground 50 jumps.they know they should have chopped it.another decided to pull low AAD fired as they deployed side by side(100jumps should have known better).as for getting hooked up on the door its bound to happen if you jump around in the aircraft like a bull in a china shop(still have it on dv take interesting watching not my footage though). yes we were incoaraged to do 5 or 6 sometimes 7 jumps a day not much to ask really 2ways and later on 3 and 4 ways 170 jumps in three months and 30 0n work placement.they had to try threats like losing jumps when people would rather sleep in till lunchtime then come in do 1 or 2 jumps and go home.be fair it is a full time coarse. as for no one getting work i got a job as ground support staff packing fueling mowing lawns,and am now flying camera full time i have 2000 jumps.5 people off my coarse have jobs flying camera that i know of and 12 people off other coarses working on dzs around nz and oz. this can be quite an intense way of learning to skydive so if you would rather take it slowly this isnt for you or if you dont have too much ready cash do it one leavel at a time absolutely nothing wrong with that. new zealand skydiving is a relatively small bunch of mostly great people.bigway maybe you should look at yourself and stop blameing everyone else for not being able to jump over here.grow up and move on....... anyone has questions on the course feel free....cheers mike.... 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quade 4 #3 March 28, 2004 It is extremely difficult to earn a wage better than marginal -- especially if you're ONLY going to be a camera flyer. If you had a "real job" during the week and then flew camera on the weekends for fun and supplimental income, it could be a little profitable, but in all honesty, most non-full-time camera flyers only break even considering all of the money they put into gear and whatnot. There are -perhaps- a dozen or so camera flyers on the entire planet, that are doing "well" and all of those have been in the sport for many years and have a huge bag of tricks and skills that have gotten them work in commercials and movies. Again, being honest, your chances for breaking into that field is close to those of winning the lottery. I'm not trying to put you off your dreams, but you should be realistic and know that you'd have a LONG road ahead of you before you'd be able to fully support yourself by only camera flying. Most folks that I know that skydive for a living have several skills that they are able to market at any one time. You'd be far more valuable to a "school" if you were also an AFF and tandem instructor as well as a camera flyer. Being a packer or rigger also helps. Basically, you want to be able to do as much as possible. If somewhere along the road you pick up a medal or two -- all the better -- you can coach.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #4 March 28, 2004 most cameramen never pay off their camera equipment... and the some of the best cameramen are in loads of debt. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverds 0 #5 March 28, 2004 A wise man once said "If you want to make a small fortune in the skydiving business, start with a large one". Skydive Radio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog 2 #6 March 28, 2004 QuoteHi Blake , look carefully at what you get when you sign up for that course , it does not say that it makes you into a camera person , with around 200 jumps included in the price , most of them solo's, I would imagine you would need a lot more additional training and jumps to be able to be a camera flyer , I have heard that quite a few people were quite disgruntled with the course. Before you sign up I would ask for information on how many students get camera jobs after the course , and how long they have to wait - rumor has it that many people fail to get employed as cameramen at dz's in the country and are just used as free labour , packing etc on the work experience part of the course. For the cost of this course you could probably get some pretty good training in the US or somewhere else , where you could learn some decent flying skills. good luck in your future skydiving The trouble is with the "someone said things..." that it is hard to find that someone, and get the low down on what they really said. Having just come back from NZ and Christchurch Parachute School, this is what I KNOW. The students are taught, by professional instructors, in all aspects of skydiving. That ranging from the jumps through to DZ management, manifesting, video editing etc. The majority of their jumps are not solo's they are usually coached jumps, and as they progress relative jumps with each other. (dependant on skills etc). As for camera work they are coached on all aspects of camera work from camera kit, sighting etc through to the jump and in air skills etc. They are supervised at every stage of their progression and all materials are made available to them. They have recently purchased 2 Canon 300D's for the students to use and are in the process of setting up a multimedia suite for them. The 2 camera people working full time on the tandem side of the DZ are ex students, and I can vouch for their skill and professionalism. As for the others I know that if you ring queenstown or taupo that they have camera people who were on the course. Rumour is a great thing but it is unsubstantiated and should be treated as such. If you want some real answers then feel free to PM me. And as for "save your money and jump here" arguement........ at which DZ can you get one-on-one tuition, coaching and personal help on a daily basis? Not many I would suspect. Plus the fact they are in NZ, land of the LOTR, and its a fantastic place. So even if the students dont wish to take up full time employment when they leave the course, at least they will have had the experience and the initial instruction to make them better at what they want to do when set against their peers who have the same number of jumps. Remember this is a qualification, supported by the NZ government, and is subject to the same auditing process as any other subject. It just so hapens to be in skydiving......... Please stop the "rumour has it" malarky. BrynJourney not destination..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark135 0 #7 March 28, 2004 QuoteIf you had a "real job" during the week and then flew camera on the weekends for fun and supplimental income, it could be a little profitable, but in all honesty, most non-full-time camera flyers only break even considering all of the money they put into gear and whatnot I have a good deal of respect for Quade as a camera person, although I have never met him. There are other more experianced camera persons than me on this board, However.... I have to disagree with the "break even" thing. It hase been my experiance, running camera for 4-5 years now that camera people do allright. now I have added a tandem rating to my "skills" and I do pretty damn good as a weekend warrior. Fact is, I make more money at the dz than I do at my job (on a daily basis not hourly) Now my wife is flying camera and it is not unusual for us to bring home 5-600$ for a decent weekend. I dont stick a lot of money into my gear. I dont have the latest and greatest digital vid or digital cam. I use my trusty old trv 11 and canon rebel. I use a protec for a camera helmet (OH MY GOD!) The protec with its smaller than i normally would use lining fits my head very tight and with the chin strap good and tight i have no camera shake. And i will put my video up with anyones in the "non-professional" class So my answer would be yes to making a living. I guess it depends on what you consider "marginal" I will admit that if i were "full-time" i would buy better equipment. It's not the gear, It's the skill. All above opinions are just that. After all I'm just an anonymous voice on the internet (and to lazy to use spell check)_______________ "It seemed like a good idea at the time" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #8 March 28, 2004 QuoteI have to disagree with the "break even" thing. It hase been my experiance, running camera for 4-5 years now that camera people do allright. Alot has to do with the cost of living where people are. Compare quade in the LA area (very high cost of living) and Michigan. One way to compare cost of living is to just look at the price of milk and bread in a particular city. It really -does- equate to cost of living ratio. Where I live (Southern CA) bread is about $3/loaf and milk $2.75. And I'm not in LA (2 hours out and a lower cost than quade's). (wonder what Hawaii is nowadays...use to be 2-3 times that). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #9 March 28, 2004 Do the math. A digital stills with DVD package nets me $40, less $5 for a pack job. You are young so pack your own canopy! $25 for a tandem, $25 for an AFF. To continue to get work your work must be good. I have been extraordinarily blessed to have been given the nod by folks on many occasions, but if I had screwed up, that ends. Your reputation will take a while to establish, but you must never screw the pooch if you want to keep getting work. That takes good gear. Thousands of dollars of good gear. A digital video for about $600 on the cheap, and digital SLR for about the same. A solid platform for those is usually not a protec, but I've seen that work. I'm lucky again in that I don't have to buy editing gear but depending on your DZ you may have to get that too. Before that you need at least 200 jumps where you master RW. I know guys freefly tandems, but I just don't think those results are as good. Plus, a good gig is hooking up a 4 way camera slot, and you can't do that in a sit. I'm on a generous pension that includes family healthcare. That's how I can do it. The young guy that I work with, who is full time, lives in a dead RV on the DZ. No phone. No running water. I think it could be done, but you'll need all your ratings, Tandem, AFF, rigger, to keep making some money when it's raining. Good luck, save hard, be good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 March 28, 2004 Ok, well, let's just review a couple of words. I usually use a bunch of qualifiers as to not speak in absolutes. Most means >50% and <100%. I said "most non-full-time camera flyers" and I still believe that's true. There may be a large number of camera flyers out there that can bring home some supplimental income or run their business as a tax write off to make their skydiving more affordable, but I really do believe that most non-full-time camera flyers are in the break even or less mode. Remember when figuring your business expenses to consider everything: gas going to and from the DZ, rig repacks and repairs, video tape and the list goes on and on. You said: Quote Fact is, I make more money at the dz than I do at my job (on a daily basis not hourly) Now my wife is flying camera and it is not unusual for us to bring home 5-600$ for a decent weekend. So, lemme see . . . $600/2 = 300 per person / 2 days = $150 per day per person. That's not bad, but for me and considering all my operating expenses over the course of an entire year, I really don't think that would make much of a dent in my rent. So, yeah, a bit of supplimental income, based on those numbers, but certainly not enough to live off of.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
motherhucker 0 #11 March 28, 2004 I agree with deuce. I would recommend studying film/photography at a REAL university, developing your skills as a photographer/videographer, and concurrently learning to skydive. I would venture to guess that less than half of the world's freefall photographers ACTUALLY know what an F-stop represents and how to use it. The benefit of having skills you can use outside of skydiving should be crystal anyhow, but what if you get hurt? How screwed are you then? You can learn everything that school will teach you and more for free in the reality of the skydiving world--just by asking questions, finding a mentor, and always being humble and ready to learn more. Being a good freefall photographer is much more than knowing the hows and whys--In the words of Richard Bach, it's being there. and for that you need to learn how to fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlakeB 0 #12 March 30, 2004 Yeah thanks guys, I appreciate the comments... it's funny cos it just so happens that i was also thinking about doing a film-makers course at the nz film academy. so i could get some skills there first. the main concern with the skydiving course is the cost... it makes it easier being a government subsidised course, but to be able to use those skills gained to pay it off? also, would it cost the same to do the usual 'learn to skydive' course and do the 200 'experience' jumps at any ole dz? cheers again guys Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whirlwind 0 #13 March 30, 2004 If your main concern is the cost and I think for students going over to New Zealand from overseas is $15,000 that's about $9,000 US. I'd take alook at these sites, http://www.skydiveaz.com http://www.skydivespacecenter.com [url] www.skydivedeland.com Who I think offer much better value for money. Good one on one coaching, fantastic weather. Lot's of camera advise I think alot of days could be spent on the ground in Christchurch, being so close to the sea it's famous for it's strong winds coming of the sea. I've met some guys who tried to do there AFF there and gave up cause of the weather. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #14 July 17, 2004 skydog, well i was on the first course. i totally think the course was really good for lectures as we were taught alot on this course and tested on everything we were taught. Aprt from myself only one other person passed aff first time each jump. We were all very lucky to be introduced to skydiving. Were also very unlucky to have to jump all day. this sounds like a good thing right but once we had our license we had to jump non stop, we could not even stop jumping then packing then jumping even for a lunch break. when you have got 20 jumps in a month and then you are forced to do 8-10 jumps a day without a break or you will lose jumps that you have paid for, well this is going to course accidents right. Well my mate hit the ground under a rotatiing mal, he survived and jumped a year later when everything was glued togethor again. I got hung up on a door of the plane and lucy the door broke cause i was hanging there with my lines coming out and then there were another 11 mals. Well i think this happened cause we were so new to the scene and forced to jump apack all day or lose money and fail the course. we started to be so tired that our pack jobs were turning to shit!. so what happens, half the course failed or were kicked off cause they paid 7500nzd for the course but then still owe a couple of hundred. i know guys who got ripped a hundred dollars. It is very proffesional course aprt from these things and also maybe that they were buying 15 year old rigs and selling them with a big profit on top. maybe they have ironed out the flaws from the first course but i am being told by other course graduates that their class was having the same problems. These people are money hungry and and offering jobs. but now 3 years into the course there are to many skydivers out there who thought they would get a job out of this but there is just not the work for all these graduates. I will come down hard on this course because alot of us got ripped off. I hate these people that call them self skydivers but then rip us off. Arent we all meant to be family?????? but i will say one thing. i am very thankful to them for getting me into skydiving. Bigway. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #15 July 17, 2004 What did you just call me ???? did Ihear my name???http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coolkiwi 0 #16 July 17, 2004 I agree , that course is a complete rip off . I did the fourth course , and it was still a shambles. The worst part of it is the advertising leads you to believe that you will be qualified as a cameraman when you complete the course. A bit naive I know , not to check this out properly , but their advertising and advice is really slick, and then you have already paid thousands for the course and gear they sell ,before you realise that you need heaps more experience than this course offers . There doesnt seem to be many camera jobs in NZ anyway , even for people with experience. ITS A BIG MONEY GRABBING CON I am now enjoying my new career in a fast food outlet , to pay of my student loans - at least they dont give you false expectations in this career Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jason_hunt 0 #17 July 22, 2004 Hi all, I have been following this posting with great interest, noting what you all have had to say. Essentially I'm looking at this from the same angle as BlakeB i.e. newbie wanting to do as much research upfront before deciding Yes or No on whether to enroll on the Christchurch course (or other course). I'd really love any feedback you guys might have on the following questions: 1. I talked with the Christchurch course marketing people. Asked them what is the typical wage rate for camera operators in NZ. Was told $25k rising to $45k depending on where in NZ one works. Does this equate with your work place experiences? 2. Read Bigways comments and took due note. Is it the case that there are too many students per course with an associated increase in potential accidents due to doing too much in to limited a timeframe? 3. Following on from this, as BlakeB alluded to, would one be better off doing an AFF course then paying for the additional 175+ jumps: this way one can gaurantee 1 to 1 supervision as much as possible? 4. Also, I've been talking with a guy who runs a DZ - would not serve any purpose to say where in NZ. He says he has had some Christchurch graduates on trial and did not in all honesty think they were technically adept enough to work full time in a DZ. Again I offer this comment as something I'd like feedback on-not as a direct criticism. 5. To refer to a previous post, is there a real risk of too many cooks spoiling this particular broth i.e. if the course churns out grads almost 4 times per year, can the market sustain all these new entrants? I understand Skydogs valid comments about Queenstown and Taupo - I guess I'm trying to gauge just how flexible the market is. 6. Guess I've saved the best til last - here's where I bring in the "this is what I heard" hearsay comment :) Whilst touring NZ I did a tandem on a DZ and was chatting to a (rather fetching) young lady who works in said DZ. She said - here we go! - that the tandem instructors earn serious money. In the order of thousands per weeks in peak season as the more they tandem the more they get paid. Valid statement or utter waffle - discuss :) As said earlier, any and all replies to this are most welcome. Regards, Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeehaa 0 #18 July 23, 2004 I am currently doing this course. I agree with some of the stuff that has been said about it. In the past it was shocking, and it failed to deliver what it offered. Due to changes that have been made (most are too late to really help my intake) the course is goin to be far better in the future. That said it has taken far too long to get the problems ironed out. I seriously believe that in about six months this course will be awesome. I stand to gain nothing by saying anything good about this course and don't get me wrong I am super pissed about certain things. What I'm trying to say is that its goin in the right direction now (finally). If you want to know more about how I have formulated my opinions feel free to pm me.Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #19 July 23, 2004 alright, what is being said about this course, problems being ironed out/? well i was saying that when i was on the course and i was on the first one ever! we only had 16 students so there was not to many of us. during our course there was only i class for the whole year(16 of us). 25k to 45k per year. well if you go to taupo you will earn 500-1000nzdolaars per day! this is every jumping day. if you are a tandem master. christchurch you want get this, queenstown you will get a bit. I take it the guy that one of you were talking to owns a dz, well that must be howard, and he is a dickhead. I would like to know what dz you were talking about. i tell you waht the students that come out are well trained and trained ecspecially for commercial dropzones so who ever said that can piss right off. we go to class and learn meteorology, and have an exam on that and 40 other lectures. you get your first aid, you learn how to deal with the media and when you come out of this course you are extremley safe in the plane, you learn alot about safety. The course is 7,500nzd for a kiwi but the course also gets an extra 5000nzd from the govt. per student. This is a rip off but you do get a student loan. if you complete the course well you will get a brilliant job at the end of it. If you owe them money they WILL kick you out. They can be real money hungry assholes but on the flip side the prople that run the course i think are really nice people! i dont get on with them but they are good people if it is not about money. at this course you will make some great friends and do more jumping in a year than some people will do in five years, i mean you wake up to go to school every day to jump out of planes. I hear they have a new turbine, well this would be great. If you want to get in the debt for skydiving and want a carrer well this is the course for you. but if you have the money in your pocket and want to do it for a sport well got ot your local dz and pay for your jumps. When you come out of this fast-carrer path to skydiving you are ashamed to say you were on the course. I will reccomend this course if you want to get indebt with student loan and can put up with politics but if you cant handle this, do not go. Buy your own gear do not buy it from them as they make money off you whenever they can. You will love this course and hate it. These problems that are going to be ironed out......well stop dreaming, they have been there since i was there. Once again It is a great course but watch your money and dont piss the owners off as they can make skydiving in new zealand impossible for you, a couple of the guys from my course can not jump anywhere in new zealand they owed them money and have stoped them from getting licenses. these people are very connected in the industry of new zealand. Good luck to you if you do the course and i trust one thing, when you come out of it you will be able to earn alot of money and you will be a very safe skydiver. On my 60th jump they took me through my high altitude course and then took me to 18,000ft over queenstown, this was awesome!!!! peace all! .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #20 July 23, 2004 by the way wirlwind, dont speak out of your ass, most of the jumps are NOT solo's. after your aff you do 10 coach jumps and then your jumps are all with anywhere from 2-10 people formations. I did this course and only did a solo when i wanted to. this course also has one of the best free flyers in new zealand. francis b jackson, he is the freefly coach and pete corbett, great safety officer is an excellent jumpmaster. dont say what you dont know. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #21 July 23, 2004 one other thing in new zealand, there is about 200 people who work on a DZ. most dz;s, there is ony 12 will do around 80 to 130 tandem passenger a day to all the back packers who come to new zealand just to skydive and bunjee jump as new zealand is the adventure capital of the world...home of aj hackett, black water rafting. camera men at good dz'z there get 50 dollars a jump, they get paid the same as tandem masters in auckland. you will do 10-20 jumps on a jumping day getting paid 50 bucks a jump. if you only do 5-7 jumps in a day that is classed as a bad day. that is still 250-350 nz dollars a day. sure there are dz's that arent this busy as well. at taupo and queenstown and auckland there is anywhere from 5-12 camera men at each dz. but you still do a shit load of jumping. this course will set you up if you want it to. remember at most of the dz's they provide free accomodation for workers. if not a room in a flat will cost you 50 dollars a week. in new zealand you need about 150 dollars a week to live cheaply. i have been on this course and know new zealand skydiving well as i have done alot of marketing in the skydiving industry. i have good and bad things to say about this course. if you want honest answers pm me. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeehaa 0 #22 July 24, 2004 francis isnt there at the moment, I have never jumped with him. pete corbitt is no longer the course director. you do do a large number of solos but that is being changed I think. the new course director is making many changes - trying to give us skills that are useful to commercial dzs, not just teaching us to turn points like in the past. yes u don't want to piss anyone off, I think this goes for skydiving in general - its a small world. as for the gear they sell you mine is fine and it wasn't sold to me by them as such. It was sold to me by a separate company owned and run by people that work there (a tandem master and a pilot). Its called rigmart.com go have a look there if you like. Sure they will charge a finders fee but they won't sell it to you if they think it is shite. I have actually seen them send stuff back to its owner because it was over pirced or crappy. thats all I got time for. jason hunt you got mailLife does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeehaa 0 #24 July 26, 2004 yes if you get hurt in some places you are screwed. in my country we have something called ACC, Accident Compensation Csomething that pays you %80 of your wages or somethingl ike that until you are healed and able to work again. Cool aye! Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikee 0 #25 August 5, 2004 hi everyone..iwas on the first Christchurch Parachute Shcool course also.for me it was a great way to get into skydiving.the owners steve and kirsty were honest and up front from the start never promising jobs but a great introduction to the industry.as for ripping people off thats the load of crap.people not wanting to pay for equipment or gear rental was the problem.2 people left due to being underfunded(not enough cash).also failing the course was pretty hard to do as there were always staff willing to go out of there way to help you pass levels if required.people getting kicked off is rubbish. few others failed for not handing in assignments.(fair enough i say).they still keep there skydive licence though.as for 11 mals more like 5.alot you say.one person did ride a rotating mal into the ground 50 jumps.they know they should have chopped it.another decided to pull low AAD fired as they deployed side by side(100jumps should have known better).as for getting hooked up on the door its bound to happen if you jump around in the aircraft like a bull in a china shop(still have it on dv take interesting watching not my footage though). yes we were incoaraged to do 5 or 6 sometimes 7 jumps a day not much to ask really 2ways and later on 3 and 4 ways 170 jumps in three months and 30 0n work placement.they had to try threats like losing jumps when people would rather sleep in till lunchtime then come in do 1 or 2 jumps and go home.be fair it is a full time coarse. as for no one getting work i got a job as ground support staff packing fueling mowing lawns,and am now flying camera full time i have 2000 jumps.5 people off my coarse have jobs flying camera that i know of and 12 people off other coarses working on dzs around nz and oz. this can be quite an intense way of learning to skydive so if you would rather take it slowly this isnt for you or if you dont have too much ready cash do it one leavel at a time absolutely nothing wrong with that. new zealand skydiving is a relatively small bunch of mostly great people.bigway maybe you should look at yourself and stop blameing everyone else for not being able to jump over here.grow up and move on....... anyone has questions on the course feel free....cheers mike.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
