JJohnson 0 #1 January 31, 2003 It appears my wife and I are about to go out and get a new computer. My main requirement is that it be sufficient to handle some editing of all the tape I've taken. Seeing as how I am about computer illeterate what am I looking for in a new computer as far as hard drive, memory and such? I got a great girl at work who will be willing to train me on Premier and other softwares, but any suggestions would be appreciated. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 January 31, 2003 Honestly... how much are you wanting to play games and do programming on it? I'm a die hard PC guy but more and more (after OS 10.2 came out at least) I've been telling people to look at getting a Mac if they have the least interest in video but are not dedicated computer geeks. With in 5 minutes of touching iMovie in the store I was able to figure out the basics and could make a movie, Premiere took me hours and hours to get that much done and I'm still having all sorts of issues doing things on. With a Mac all the software is included to do nice videos where Premiere is going to run you over $350 to buy it. You can get MS office for the Mac too if you need to do that stuff. Unless you are going to be playing games that are not there for the Mac or are doing PC specific things.... look at a Mac if your not up to studying things for hours to become a PC geek.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rredman 0 #3 January 31, 2003 I'm another die-hard PC guy, who bought a mac last year to do vieo editting and it's the smartest thing I could have done. The software that comes standard on the mac will do all the video ediitting you you want for basic skydiving stuff, and if you really want to use premiere, the mac version is the same as the pc version... exept that the machine won't crash every 5 hours! my 0.02.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #4 January 31, 2003 Quote Seeing as how I am about computer illeterate what am I looking for in a new computer as far as hard drive, memory and such?I got a great girl at work who will be willing to train me on Premier and other softwares, but any suggestions would be appreciated.JJ The larger the hard drive, the better. Digital video (DV) eats up tons of space. 60-80 gb at an absolute minimum. Memory - at least 1/2 gig.I've had a Mac for editing for over three years...easy yet you can do a lot with the free suite of software (now called iLife)...iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD (If you want to burn DVDs) and iTunes. These applications are all being updated sometime today. If you want a higher end software you can buy Final Cut Express which is Apple's pro level program which has been maximized for DV. It sells for $299 US.It sounds like you want to archive a lot of your footage...I'd suggest a DVD burner or Superdrive equipped Mac to do that. The new software being released will make setting up a DVD extremely easy - based on the writeups on Apple's site. I'll be downloading that software this evening and seeing how easy it is to set up chapters for a DVD. I have to wait for my dealer to get my copy of iDVD3 as it isn't a free upgrade. When I receive it in the next week or so I will have a project all ready to burn. I will report back later on how all these upgrades work out.Good luck and have fun "kicking the tires" -- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #5 January 31, 2003 I gotta go with these guys, even though I'm a die hard gamer and programmer by day as well (i.e. I get my share of the PC world), macs are by far the best solution for video - wishing I had a brand new 17inch G4 laptop... mmmmmmmm.... good luck -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #6 January 31, 2003 Macs are great for the not-so-computer-literate, and great for video editing, too. You can get most software that you'd want for the Mac, and they tend to be rock-solid stable. Premiere (which you mentioned you had access to) is nearly identical across both platforms. Avid is identical across both platforms, too (if you can get Avid or Premiere - go for the Avid). If you decide to go non-Mac, you can add a Firewire card to most any (don't even consider an e-machine) for about $60. Additional storage can be added, pretty easy, to most computers (ask the salesperson). For video editing, I recommend a second/dedicated hard-drive for video capture/editing. The Sony line comes with Firewire ports, and basic editing software. If possible a few extra dollars spent on XP Pro will pay for itself in stability. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #7 January 31, 2003 The girl that works with me went to school for animation. She is real good on a computer and I respect what she says. She agrees that the Mac won't crash, but still thinks IBM is a better way to go. Mostly cause there are more softwares available for it and you can do more with it. I hate making desicions I know little about. I figured a computer was good just cause it was electric and not steamed powered. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #8 January 31, 2003 I've got a Sony machine and the memory card and firewire ports are really handy. I am brand-new to digital editing, but buy the machine that supports the software you want to use. I would listen to Cajones, and go to the store and get the Avid box, write down the specs for it, and then get a machine that exceeds them. I ended up working with Premiere, it's the only product I have any experience with, but think about the cost of good video editing software. The full version of Premiere is almost $700. The upgrade to the full version from the truncated one that comes with the machine is $299. If you only inted to poodle around with you personal footage, really think about the Mac. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #9 January 31, 2003 I solely use a PC and don't really want to or have the need to go switch to a Mac. I haven't had any problems with Premiere 6.5 that haven't been fixed in less than 5 minutes (about 2 problems total). It works very well and when you learn to use it correctly, you'll be able to whip through things. Since she uses it a lot, she'll be able to show you the ropes pretty well. I have a buddy who makes indy films and such on Premiere and he's been giving me some lessons and will soon finish up on Premiere with me and we're going to be starting with After Effects 5.5. It should be a hoot. Anyway, I would go with a PC since they are MUCH more cost efficient and are very good to work on. Just be sure to get at least 512MB RAM 40GB HD and some FireWire. If you want to game on it, I would recommend AT LEAST a 64mb video card, but spring for 128mb if you can. I game a lot and use 64, but it would be better on 128. If you have any questions, feel free to msg me on IM or via PM. I am by no means a professional, but I'm on my computer all day and have edited a lot of stuff and have used Premiere a lot. So, I've seen the ups and downs... but mostly ups. One more thing... PhreeZone said that he took hours and hours to learn Premiere. Yeah... that is true. It can take a LONG time to learn. However, that is when you are trying to figure it out all on your own. If you have someone showing you the stuff that isn't obvious or sitting right there, it can take awhile to figure it out. Things like fades, in/out points, color correction, spec effects, etc can easily be figured out with some guidance. I guess what I'm saying is that you can go PC or Mac and be able to do anything you want. If it was up to me (and my bank account), I would stick with PC since you can get a damn good one for well under $1,500. Just make sure you get something that won't be outdated in 6 months. Spend the extra money for better parts, and you won't be kicking yourself in a year when you're paying someone to upgrade your hardware. Good luck. http://www.brandonandlaura.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #10 January 31, 2003 1500 is the cost to build one and not pay for software. Premiere is almost 700, Windows is another 199, then all the other stuff and it quickly becomes an equal cost. Buying something like a Compaq that has the specs to do nice video editing will run close to 1500 or more then you have to tack on the software cost. For about 1900 you can get a Mac with all the software included plus a lot that the PC does'nt have. Add on something like OpenOffice and you can get full MS Office style editing on a Mac for free. I know a lot of people that are still video editing on their G3's. Try and find someone doing video editing on a middle of the road PC thats 3 years old. *never in a million years would I have thought I would tell anyone to buy a Mac... some one shoot me now*Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #11 January 31, 2003 I'd say listen to her. If she went to school for animation, she's most likely used both platforms (Mac/PC). She is most familiar with your abilities and needs. I am a cross-platform type, with Intel/Xeon's for my personal use preference. Not something you can pick up off the shelf at any computer store. The support that comes with most off-the-shelf types, combined with the help of "experts" such as your friend can take you well past "user-friendly" and into the realm of computer geeks, like myself. It looks like you're going with the non-Mac, so let me re-emphasize: Get Windows XP Pro. It'll improve the stability of your computer, and keep the frustration factor way down (I use Win2000 Pro for this same reason). Also, I recommend getting an Intel processor (Pentium 4 2GHz, or higher). This will alarm the AMD processor lovers, but the Intel processors are less problematic than the AMD's. The final recommendation is the most complex/difficult to satisfy... The Intel 845 chipset (this is the part of the motherboard/backbone of your computer system that coordinates the processor, memory, etc.) is found on many, many off-the-shelf computers. This chipset can create difficulties with Premiere that can be a real asspain to figure out. Sony (and possibly other manufacturers) support has a "checklist" in their knowlege base that can help configure your system to work well with Premiere. The salesperson is unlikely to know what chipset the motherboard of any of their computers is built with. Spend the time to research it. The Sony line is the most likely to work well with Premiere (they come with Premiere LE, with an upgrade option to the full version - you may not need it). Happy hunting, and PM me if I can be of some help. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #12 January 31, 2003 Thank you everybody. I am going back and forth between PC and MAC. My girl here does acknowledge some advantages to the MAC. However my wife gets a pretty good discount on Dell, through her work. She gets a no interest loan on it as well. Looking at their 8250, with upgrading the 60 GB hard drive to 180 or whatever the limit is. Adding a second hard drive, built in fire wire. I did take a look at the Sony. Real nice with most of the stuff built in already. The MACS as well. Tough choice. I can hosestly say that I don't do much on a computer and playing with video is my only real reason for wanting to upgrade at all. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #13 January 31, 2003 You will basically just need to pick one and run with it. This thread can go on and on like a Mustang vs. Camaro thread on a muscle car forum. I am a solid PC user... others see Macs as the better choice. Either way you go, you'll have a good time editing and get some good things out of it. Have fun and good luck. http://www.brandonandlaura.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #14 February 1, 2003 JJ,If your only reason is for video, take a very good look at a Mac. I disagree that they are more expensive. A Mac with a DVD burner, all the software you need included will cost you as follows:emac 1499iMac 15" flat panel lcd - 1699iMac 17" flat panel lcd - 1999I think it compares very favourably with pc alternatives. Add in the fact that Apple topped PC World latest Service and Reliability survey, the integration afforded by Apple writing the software, the operating system and building the hardware and the ease of use...it's a very good way for you to go. IMO. iMovie is the best consumer level video editing program. Personally I don't think you will need anything else...based on your description of your needs.Anyways...before a pc/mac war breaks out, I am going to go and check out iMovie3 which just installed in the background while I was typing this message.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #15 February 2, 2003 Not to confuse the issue, but my hands on experience is if you are going to use premiere, DONT upgrade to XP... Go with 2000 pro. I have heard quite a few people having compatibility issues with premiere and XP. For instance, I talked to one guy who had the EXACT same PC as me, the only differences were he was using XP, and I was using 2000. My system was bulletproof (well, as much as you can on a mickeysoft product) and he could barely keep his running. He downgraded and now it works perfectly. My only other complaint with this thread would be the comparisons in editing software. you really cant compare final cut express with premiere. Premiere is MUCH more comparable to Final Cut Pro ($999) in features and performance. you may never use all of the premiere bells/whistles, but its kinda unfair to compare a light version (FCE) to a full version (Prem). I know because I jsut finished a mac sponsored seminar on editing in FCP. VERY nice software. Also, you should NEVER buy premiere for the PC. its too expensive. Buy a hardware video solution for 3/4 of the price and get the software bundled in "free". so far I have seen the bundled systems with 6.0 you can then upgrade to 6.5 for $140 (real time previews, etc). and if you dont need the hardware, sell it on ebay and get back some of the cost. My opinion is to check the pricing of the mac, and the pc. You will probably find the mac is more expensive. if you can justify the extra cost, by all means go for it. Macs are designed more for graphics and better suited for what we do. If you want a system for all around use, go PC. For ff vids, mac or pc, it really doesnt matter. most of us wont ever use the systems to the fullest, to the point that we NEED to compare the two closely. I am looking for a new video editing system. After all I have seen, I WANT a G4 Powerbook with FCP, or will settle for Premiere 6.5. but that is gonna cost me almost $4000. I will make due with a 2ghz PC laptop and move my copy of Prem and it will cost me $2000. it used to be that you would kick yourself for buying a pc over a mac. now that I have researched it, thats true only if you are a true digital cinematographer. basic editing users like we are wont notice much difference. just my .02Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #16 February 2, 2003 Quoteonly if you are a true digital cinematographer Not true. The film industry uses PC's a plenty. Or SGI's, and even *gasp* Linux based AMD/Intel render farms. I don't see very many Macs in Cinema. Still seeing about 50/50 in the photo side, though. For serious scalability - Not a Mac. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #17 February 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteonly if you are a true digital cinematographer Not true. The film industry uses PC's a plenty. Or SGI's, and even *gasp* Linux based AMD/Intel render farms. I don't see very many Macs in Cinema. Still seeing about 50/50 in the photo side, though. For serious scalability - Not a Mac. ok, ok. I didnt mean cinematographer on THAT level. I meant in consumer/prosumer DV terms. In your level, they arent shooting on MiniDV, but they are in mine. I was talking more the differences between the works of Mike McGowan vs. Norman Kent (yes I know he uses alot of film instead of digital media). Or the average 10 minute tandem video vs. a 60 minute boogie video(with artistic background and story, not just a boatload of clips run together set to music). yes, lucasarts, pixar, etc. use MUCH larger setups and werent really considered for this discussion. the largest I was thinking was a group such as new tribe entertainment, etc.Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #18 February 2, 2003 QuoteI am looking for a new video editing system. After all I have seen, I WANT a G4 Powerbook with FCP, or will settle for Premiere 6.5. but that is gonna cost me almost $4000. I will make due with a 2ghz PC laptop and move my copy of Prem and it will cost me $2000. OK, I'll preface this with the fact that I am new to the Digital editing arena and may not have the experience with a PC/MAC that some of you here do. However, I have used a machine made for NLE made by Applied Magic and loved it. It belonged to my friend who taught me to use it in a matter of 15 minutes and it is bombproff as they come. I have also used Pinnacle 7.XX and found it to be somewhat easy to use but no where as flexible as the Applied magic machine, it's like day and night with the two. My question then, is why spend the $4k or even $2K on a laptop/desktop PC when you can buy a dedicated NLE machine that's in the same ballpark as what you'd put out for a tricked out PC that you know is going to have issues sooner or later? I understand some people have tight budgets and so forth but I think this is along the same lines as "why buy a Sony camera?" 1, because they work and everyone uses them and 2. you get what you pay for in the long run. With #2 being the relevant point here in this discussion. I'd rather dish out a bit more up front and alleveate the hair pulling and teeth nashing that comes with some of the other PC based software/hardware suites that everyone is currently using and also not have to have a degree in computer science to figure the program out. Maybe this is just me but I think the economical thing in the long run would be to use a dedicated NLE machine built to do nothing but edit video and not rely on an OS or other PC based programs. i also think you stand a better chance to recoup some of your money if you ever decide to sell the machine."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #19 February 2, 2003 One reason for PC/MAC based editing over a dedicated NLE solution is upgrades and flexibility. If your NLE doesnt do what you need, you are possibly screwed. If my editor doesnt do what I need, I just buy a plug-in, or 3rd party app. Also, I cant check my email with a dedicated NLE One nice feature of using a PC based system, is finding books and training for it. I can walk into any book store and grab an armload of Premiere books. I can also find all kinds of training software and classes for Premiere, Final Cut, Media Studio, etc. Not sure I can do that with a dedicated NLE. Also, If I dont like the book that came with my software, I can go buy a better one. And if built properly with the right hardware and software, it can be just as stable as a dedicated NLE. You can do the pc based system for less than $2000. just not on a laptop that you can carry around. THAT is where the bulk of the cost is in my example. I can do the same thing in a desktop platform for half that. Yes, NLE systems are good, and so are PC based. just depends on what you want. I guess it all boils down to what you find suits your needs and budgets best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #20 February 2, 2003 Quote One reason for PC/MAC based editing over a dedicated NLE solution is upgrades and flexibility. If your NLE doesnt do what you need, you are possibly screwed. If my editor doesnt do what I need, I just buy a plug-in, or 3rd party app. Also, The one I mentioned is fully supported and upgradable. If I remember correctly, CNN and other media use it as a in field editor. Quote I cant check my email with a dedicated NLE This is true but do you buy a shotgun to clean cobwebs out of the corners or buy a broom instead? I guess I believe in using the right tool for the job Quote You can do the pc based system for less than $2000. just not on a laptop that you can carry around. THAT is where the bulk of the cost is in my example. I can do the same thing in a desktop platform for half that. The NLE I spoke of is no bigger than an average VCR/DVD player with a keyboard and mouse. All you need is a Tv or monitor to view. About as portable as most camera equipment and the like can get if you plan on taking it on the road. Yes, NLE systems are good, and so are PC based. just depends on what you want. I wish to avoid the hair pulling ,lock ups and limited capabilities I've already encountered with the PC systems. Work smart, not hard."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #21 February 2, 2003 It really comes down to what you need to do. The computer based NLE's are much more powerful and flexible than the dedicated NLE system you test-drove. There are some great NLE's out there, and most can be upgraded/updated. Limits come into play in one primary area - capacity. These systems are great for field editing, and would even be great for things like tandem videos, but are rather limited when it comes to needing huge bins for a larger composite. Familiarity is another issue. Most computer types can troubleshoot basic system glitches. Professional editors are generally "computer types." Tools are an even broader issue. Composing graphics and clips in other programs (such as Illustrator, PhotoShop, and AfterEffects) is common place. Not something you can do very easily on a dedicated NLE. My system is not just a tool; it's a box full of tools. BTW - there's more miniDV out there than you might realize. Avid Express DV is a wonderful tool for miniDV environments, but programs like Symphony and the Liquid types can do amazing stuff with miniDV. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #22 February 3, 2003 Quote but are rather limited when it comes to needing huge bins for a larger composite. OK, since I am your illegitimate love child with Lew, I will take what you say as the ruleHow large do the bins need to be? The system I used is capable of a upgradable HD up to 120 Gb with 60 being standard. I take it you may need this much space with a really long boogie video but on average how much space would you say you need to have to kick out the average joe blow skydiving video? Quote Familiarity is another issue. Most computer types can troubleshoot basic system glitches. Professional editors are generally "computer types." I wouldn't consider myself a computer type but my buddy taught me this system in about 15 mins and I was making a video with transitions,music, titles and effects. Now my buddy is a comptuer idiot and he hasn't had any issues that I am aware of and if anyone can have them it is him LOL Quote Tools are an even broader issue. Composing graphics and clips in other programs (such as Illustrator, PhotoShop, and AfterEffects) is common place. Not something you can do very easily on a dedicated NLE. Here again, I admit my unfamiliarity with editing. What other type of tools would I need or reason would I have for needing these tools for composing skydiving videos? Quote Avid Express DV is a wonderful tool for miniDV environments, but programs like Symphony and the Liquid types can do amazing stuff with miniDV. Again, my limited exposure but from what I've seen on this BB and on some DV forums, Avid seems to get dumped on as well as being a bit of a pain to use unless you actually have an editing department at your disposal. What's the real deal on this software/system?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #23 February 3, 2003 QuoteYou can do the pc based system for less than $2000. just not on a laptop that you can carry around. THAT is where the bulk of the cost is in my example. I can do the same thing in a desktop platform for half that.The 12" Apple Powerbook WITH a DVD burner is $1,999 US.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #24 February 3, 2003 Quote I wish to avoid the hair pulling ,lock ups and limited capabilities I've already encountered with the PC systems. Work smart, not hard. I agree. I spent half of last season doing the hair pulling. FINALLY got the system stable, and now it works flawlessly. I guess the key is if you go with a PC based system, either buy it pre-fab as a turnkey system, or you had better REALLY know what you are doing as you build the system. And when the company says "we recommend only X Y and Z, listen to them even if it means a little more cash. Its worth it in the long run. Hell, I am a professional network/computer consultant and system builder, and it took me a while to get the hang of building a stable editor. But it figures, just as I figure out how to get this system purring, I am ready to upgrade to another system Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cameramonkey 0 #25 February 3, 2003 Quote Quote You can do the pc based system for less than $2000. just not on a laptop that you can carry around. THAT is where the bulk of the cost is in my example. I can do the same thing in a desktop platform for half that. The 12" Apple Powerbook WITH a DVD burner is $1,999 US. If you understand the processing power needed for some of the edits in FCP, that system wont quite cut the mustard. Cant pack in quite enough ram, The hard drives are a bit small (yeah, firewire drives), and it lacks the processing power needed to do the job efficiently. They are recommending a minimum of a dual 1.2 G4 desktop system with 1-2 gig RAM (a little overkill for tandem vids). They suggest the G4 based (15") powerbooks as a "workable" platform, but not recommended for full time daily use. This coming from an independent FCP instructor as of tuesday of last week. I asked if the 12's can do it, and he demonstrated with his personal model. In seeing them in action, the 12 inch powerbooks CAN do it, but are a little bit slower than what I have seen a PC laptop (for less $$) do. Needless to say, i wasnt impressed Maybe I am being a bit picky and jaded...Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
