PAL/NTSC

[rmcvey 0]

Can someone please explain the differences between the two phases "PAL" and "NTSC"
Are they acronyms and if so what do they stand for.
Muchos Grassy arse.

[quade 4]

They are acronyms for two different standards of television (actually there is more than one version of PAL, but that's another discusion)
The letters themselves actually stand for; Phase Alternate Line and National Television Standards Comittee.
NTSC is used in North America, Japan and some other countries.
PAL is used mostly in Europe.
NTSC is an outgrowth of the original B&W television signals transmitted in the U.S.
PAL was an attempt to "fix" an issue with the color of NTSC.
There is an old joke that says the NTSC -really- stands for "Never The Same Color". This used to be an issue many years ago when color TV was first introduced, but with modern equipment this is definately -not- the case.
In -theory- PAL produces a better picture. In practice the difference really doesn't amount to much and causes a lot of headaches and them damn Euro-trash bastards just made life more difficult for everyone since the two systems are NOT really compatable in ANY way.
NTSC is based on (more or less) the 60 cycle current flowing through your house in the USA. There are (about) 30 frames per second. Each "frame" is made of two interlaced "fields". The phase of the color sub-carrier rotates 90 degrees each field.
PAL is based on (more or less) the 50 cycle current flowing through the lines of houses in Europe. Like I said earlier, there are a couple of different versions of PAL, so I won't go into the evil details here other than to say it has 25 frames per second.
Among the reasons the two systems are incompatable is the 30fps v. 25fps issue.
Neither system is perfect.
Paul
http://futurecam.com

[rmcvey 0]

So footage shot on a PAL PC9, you couldnt take out the tape and play it in a NTSC PC9?????
Or am i way off?
Also when I buy videos like Breakaway, Pack like a Pro etc. they always offer a PAL version or a NTSC version??? Do i have to chose the right one or does it not matter once its on a regular video???
oh dear, this could get very confusing. Rob

[quade 4]

Quote

So footage shot on a PAL PC9, you couldnt take out the tape and play it in a NTSC PC9?

Depends. Some of the Sony miniDV product will playback both PAL and NTSC recorded material. HOWEVER -- I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on saying that it categorically WILL play it back. There seem to be WAY to many variables in the Sony models and the ability to play back both PAL and NTSC is one of them. Generally speaking, they will only playback one or the other.

Quote

Also when I buy videos like Breakaway, Pack like a Pro etc. they always offer a PAL version or a NTSC version??? Do i have to chose the right one or does it not matter once its on a regular video???

Yes, you have to make sure you have the correct version. Again, there are -some- VHS machines that can handle both PAL and NTSC, but as a general rule people buy equipment that ONLY will play back one or the other.
If you live in the USA and aren't an international competitor/camera flyer, then choose NTSC and don't worry about it.
If you live in Europe and aren't an international competitor/camera flyer, then choose PAL and don't worry about it.
If you're an international competitor/camera flyer, then you'll probably HAVE to have a PAL camera at one point or another.
If you're a world traveller with unlimited funds, then seek out equipment that can use as many international standards as possible -- especially, PAL & NTSC both.
Paul
http://futurecam.com

[indyz 1]

Quote

So footage shot on a PAL PC9, you couldnt take out the tape and play it in a NTSC PC9?????

A PAL VCR will only play PAL tapes, and an NTSC VCR will only play NTSC tapes. There are special VCRs that can play both formats, but the last time I checked, they were prohibitively expensive for the home use.
As far as I know, all digital cameras record in the same format, but some (most?) can only generate an output signal in either PAL or NTSC format. Your best bet would be to contact either the manufacturer of the camera that you are interested in or a trusted electronics store.

Quote

Also when I buy videos like Breakaway, Pack like a Pro etc. they always offer a PAL version or a NTSC version??? Do i have to chose the right one or does it not matter once its on a regular video???

Yep, you have to use PAL tapes in PAL VCRs and NTSC tapes in NTSC VCRs. Mismatching PAL and NTSC just doesn't work. I see in your profile that you live in the UK, so if you own a VCR, it is probably a PAL player.
You can check this link for a fairly long explanation of the differences (as well as a bunch of other stuff): http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:au-hAbkEJ78:www.logicaldesigns.net/divx/pdf/NTSC, PAL & Interlace Explained.pdf+explain+difference+PAL+NTSC&hl=en
This link also has a good explanation, though it is based around the workings of a Playstation: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sps/psxfaq/mini/frame.html
--
Brian
"The sky is lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I pull"

[skyhawk 2]

but the last time I checked, they were prohibitively expensive for the home use.
surprissingly not here they arnt that much more expensive and most new tvs come compatible
Click Me

[RemiAndKaren 0]

In Europe, lost of even cheap VCR will play both PAL and NTSC and output them in PAL
Remi
Muff 914

[apoil 0]

Quote

In reply to:
So footage shot on a PAL PC9, you couldnt take out the tape and play it in a NTSC PC9?
Depends. Some of the Sony miniDV product will playback both PAL and NTSC recorded material. HOWEVER -- I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on saying that it categorically WILL play it back. There seem to be WAY to many variables in the Sony models and the ability to play back both PAL and NTSC is one of them. Generally speaking, they will only playback one or the other.

In this case it doesn't depend... He asked about a specific model. The PC9. I have done a fair amount of transferring of tapes and cross recording of footage between PC9's of both formats.
The problems will arise when you try to play them back on a monitor.
Many overseas monitors these days are capable of both PAL and NTSC playback, but monitors in the states are NTSC only, so while your NTSC PC9 will be able to playback a PAL recorded tape on it's own LCD display, you probably wont be able to view it on a pure NTSC monitor.

[apoil 0]

Quote

A PAL VCR will only play PAL tapes, and an NTSC VCR will only play NTSC tapes. There are special VCRs that can play both formats, but the last time I checked, they were prohibitively expensive for the home use.

In America, yes.
In Singapore and elsewhere, multisystem is the norm. But they all run on 220V power.

[rmcvey 0]

" a specific model........"
sorry, I only said PC9 as an example,
but thanks for the info guys.
BS's

[mccordia 74]

Also keep in mind that DV (although it looks great) has some limitations when it comes to color.
The information is stored in 4:1:1 format, which basicly means that the b/w info is saved on the full resolution, but the color info is only saved every 4th pixel.
In NTSC that would mean you have 640x480 b/w (which gives a sharp/clear picture)
But the color info would only be 320x240 (watch the red/blue colors, they usualy fringe/bleed over the edges, showing small blocky artifacts)
If you have commercial work in mind, they usualy prefer footage that was shot on video in 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 format.
Betacam/Betacam SP (huge tapes and even bigger recorders:) and DV CAM/DV CAM pro are the format of your choise (or even better 16 mm, but that's WAY expensive:)
Only downside to all these great formats are the cost, and (with betacam and such) the size of the camera's..
Anyone...just for those intrested :)
Greetz,
Jarno

[Faber 0]

i hate you americans
oh well after a great visit in US ive got some ntsc dub from my brother Now the big pain is that we would love to make 1 video whith all the material in,however you cant mix formats while edit a file..

i know you could buy a box for aprox 400$ that could convert it,but.. aint there any software that can convert it?

I dont care if the outcome is ntsc or pal

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[dragon2 2]

I used Premiere Pro 1.5 to make a video with both formats because I ended up with both after the Norway swoop competition, and I wanted a PAL movie, so I figured out a way to do it: first I imported the ntsc clips into Premiere via a ntsc project. Then I opened a new PAL project for the pal stuff, and I imported the ntsc clips from my harddrive into the pal project. All ntsc clips that you use in your movie need to be resized to 120% and each ntsc clip also needs to be de-interlaced. Export as a PAL movie, et voila. I can't tell the difference between the ntsc bits and the pal bits
One caveat: I could only get the ntsc clips to my computer using a ntsc camera! My pal cam will copy a ntsc tape but will not export it

Edited to say, I forgot, the Norway footage was even worse: I also had some PAL HDV footage, needed ANOTHER premiere project for that
Premiere is great, I got a nice movie with so many different inputs

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Faber 0]

thanks dude ill try that.. which cam did you use?

i have a pc103 taking both pal and ntsc,sadly i didnt bring my analoug cabel to us so i couldnt see if it out put ntsc,on a ntsc cam it would show on the screen but not on a tv

i also tryed to ask it to record in ntsc to have the same formats but it didnt seemed to work...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[dragon2 2]

Quote

thanks dude ill try that.. which cam did you use?

i have a pc103 taking both pal and ntsc,sadly i didnt bring my analoug cabel to us so i couldnt see if it out put ntsc,on a ntsc cam it would show on the screen but not on a tv

i also tryed to ask it to record in ntsc to have the same formats but it didnt seemed to work...

I'm no dude

I used a TRV25E (PAL) and a VX2100 (NTSC). Sigh, the VX is soooo nice to use, it's even worth the converting hassle! I want one, PAL or not!!! However I'm broke... Anyone wants to go buy a nice new HDV cam and let me have their VX2100 cheap?

Just recording doesn't change the format, that would be very nice indeed

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[freekflyguy 0]

I use Sony Vegas to convert NTSC to PAL.

Quite simply

1. Capture your clips from your NTSC cam,

2. Open a new project, and drag the NTSC clips to the time line.

3. Render the project as DV PAL.

4. Export to your PAL Cam

You can also go PAL - NTSC if you wanted.

Buzz

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[paddyFrenchman 0]

What I gathered from these posts is that you need two cameras one pal one ntsc...

Is there a way to do it with only one camera. My cam plays back ntsc and pal no problem...

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

[mccordia 74]

I've used premiere to capture NTSC and PAL footage, both from my normal (PAL) Sony PC8

In premiere, capture settings there is an option called device controll, where you can specify if your capture device is NTSC or PAL.
I used NTSC settings and then captured of my PAL cam (NTSC tape) without problems.

Some camera's also have an internal option for NTSC playback, in terms of how they handle the firewire signal (browse through the settings of your cam)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[paddyFrenchman 0]

Hey dragon, can you expand on why you would have to deinterlace the ntsc clip ?

Just in case somebody wonders, if you're in the opposite situation as the one described by dragon and you're importing pal clips in an nstc project, the clips should be resized to 85% so you see the whole thing.

Dragon, i'm not sure what you would do with the fields of a pal clip in a ntsc project. Any ideas ?

P.

[mccordia 74]

Quote

can you expand on why you would have to deinterlace the ntsc clip ?

Basicly because both standards use 50% of their image-lines for a field (field = half a frame)
Every one pixel line is an even field, and then a one pixel line is an un-even field. So basicly your video runs at 50 half frames a second.

Both with pal and ntsc.

When you scale the video, the seperation of exactly 1 pixel gets lost.

So it becomes something like 1.1 pixels per field, which is impossible, thus most editing programs then just blend the fields together in a horrible way.

So the end result gets these wierd jagged edges. Not as bad as a completely interlaced video/still would look, but just enough to make you notice that it's a bit f*cked up

Deinterlacing throws one field away and interpolerates one half frame/field into a full deinterlaced frame (some cameras actualy allow you to film without fields...called progressive scan)

So in shot...Without this deinterlacing before scaling, the fields just get f*cked up...

I've included an example

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[paddyFrenchman 0]

thanks a million for that.

[Zoter 0]

OK hows about putting the footage on DVD at the source ......with a low compression so the quality is as good as you can get it
Lets say its NTSC footage and you 'want it in PAL'

Take it home......use some DVD 'ripping' software and pull off the video files.....and then import them into a PAL project on your editing software...

Might lose a 'bit' of quality as compared to DV.......but would this work?