Types of Canopies

[nicknitro71 0]

IMO you had good and bad points in your reply.

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What I did say is that a guy with 100 jumps should not be teaching another guy with 50 jumps how to track, or what to jump. Get the best knowledge you can.....If thats a guy with 100 jumps fine, but if you have an AFF I sitting there talk to him.

At this point in time you only need 100 jumps and a C to become a Coach. You double that and you can be an AFF I.

So according to you the majority of coaches and AFF Is should not be jumping, giving advices, or for that matter talking to students at all.

If a student does not get that the remark about the C Cobalt 65 is a joke, with all the respect to Larry, the student should read and understand more about gear and wing-loading and ask his/her instructors/S&Ts not unknowns online including myself.

The point of my remark was that this is not the right place to gather such as info.

Larry is jumping at Finger Lakes that is a great DZ with great people and instructors. There, they are very, very canopy size conservative, so if Larry decides to continue to jump there, things are they are not going to put him under a crazy canopy.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Ron 10]

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The other one is an extemely young guy who's got less jumps than myself and
a certain I know it all attitude when it comes to gear. But we know that's not true. Now
I know this younger guy knows more about gear than I do

Well if this guy knows more....Then he might be good to talk to about gear.

Yes riggers are made different. The one with 10 years will be better thena the guy that just got his ticket....

But the guy with 10 years in the sport is better to listen to about skydiving as well...

So again....Why ask people who don't know you, and you don't know and that might not really know what they are talking about advice?

Go as close to the source of info as possible.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skybytch 273]

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An AFF 7 does not know what an AFF 2 should do. He only knows what he did.

What he did may be exactly what that guy on level 2 needs to hear. Someone on level 7 is a lot closer to the emotions that guy on level 2 is feeling than is someone with 1000 jumps and an AFF rating.

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Were there people better qualified to teach him...and you? Why did you not go and seek them out?

The few jumpers "better qualified" to teach him and me were busy doing other things. We're talking a one Cessna dz that was only a year or so old here; our regular crowd had three people in it with more than 1000 jumps and all of them were constantly busy working with students. We didn't go elsewhere because we couldn't afford to.

I doubt that our situation then is much different than the situation that many newer jumpers find themselves in. Had everyone at my home dz had your attitude, I'd probably have left the sport before I reached 100 jump wonder status.

If you don't want to pass on your knowledge to those who are asking questions here, don't post to their questions. That'd be a shame because you have a lot of experience and knowledge to share, but that would be your choice. Wouldn't it be better to correct those who maybe "shouldn't" be giving advice when they are wrong? Wouldn't it be more like "giving back" to give those asking questions solid advice rather than berating them for asking in the first place?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Someone on level 7 is a lot closer to the emotions that guy on level 2 is feeling than is someone with 1000 jumps and an AFF rating.

Yesterday at my DZ there was a fellow (who has shown his face here on DZ.COM) who failed his AFF Level I jumped because he failed to pull in time. He got his debriefing from the AFF instructors but you could tell the dude was disappointed. But to his credit he hung around and got to talking to some other jumpers (with the exception of one guy, people who Ron would qualify as not-qualified to talk to students). Well not being on the jump, I knew better that to try and critic what went wrong. According to this fellow, he kept his emotions in check, but he was confused with some of the hand signals the instructors were giving him and missed the important pull signal. We (as unqualified jumpers) didn't try to tell him what to do, but instead tried to encourage him. In other words we told him that it's not uncommon for people to fail AFF levels. I wasn't alone here, but my mission was to try and incourage that guy to learn off of his mistakes and to show up next week to try again. In other words, he was getting encouragement from other people he likely wouldn't have received from an AFF instructor. Now if it turns out that he's not the right personality to be a skydiver, then so be it. The AFF instructors will know when to break the bad news to him. But if he hit a hurdle, then I'd like to hope that myself and three other people were responsible for getting him back on the horse and jumping.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 10]

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I doubt that our situation then is much different than the situation that many newer
jumpers find themselves in. Had everyone at my home dz had your attitude, I'd
probably have left the sport before I reached 100 jump wonder status.

No, if I were at the same DZ as you...I would be willing and able to answer any questions you had...ever. And if you were here at Zhills, you would know that I am out here almost every weekend, and if I am asked a question I go out of my way to answer it. a lot of times the answer I give is not the answer you want to hear however.

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If you don't want to pass on your knowledge to those who are asking questions here,
don't post to their questions. That'd be a shame because you have a lot of experience
and knowledge to share, but that would be your choice. Wouldn't it be better to correct
those who maybe "shouldn't" be giving advice when they are wrong? Wouldn't it be
more like "giving back" to give those asking questions solid advice rather than berating
them for asking in the first place?

I never said I didn't want to answer his question...I asked him why is he asking here, where most of us could not spot him in a police line up instead of asking the qualified people that know him at his own DZ....Thats the difference I am trying to bring up....There are people out there at EVERY DZ that are willing to share what they have learned. I know it is easy to ask here, and you can do it at 1AM (to be honest, if you call me at 1AM to ask me this kinda question, I am not going to be happy). But there are WAY to many people here that say something, and don't let you know that they really don't have a clue...Because they think they do know what they are doing...Just like I did at 100 jumps. It took me 1,000 more before I realized I didn't know squat.
And I still don't know it all. I just had a conversation over Email with Kallend where he schooled me on lift.

And as for "correcting" people when they are wrong....
Not my idea of fun. My whole point of this was to let people know that they should ask the people with the knowledge that they know...Before they ask here. And to take everything they read here and run it past people they know.

As for me having knowledge....How do you know I have a clue?
You don't know me.....I have read things from people that I thought was dead on...To find out later that they had 20 jumps, and could not do what they just told someone else to do....and I have seen guys with AFF tickets that didn't know beans, and should not teach.

The whole point of this is to use the people that you know, and build a relationship with those you don't at your own DZ.

Oh well, have fun,
Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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But to his credit
he hung around and got to talking to some other jumpers (with the exception of one
guy, people who Ron would qualify as not-qualified to talk to students).

When did I ever say not to TALK to other students?????
I just said that a lot of people should not be TEACHING other students.

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Well not being
on the jump, I knew better that to try and critic what went wrong.

Now Canuck is a perfect example of what I am saying....He talked to the guy, but did not try to teach him.

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We (as
unqualified jumpers) didn't try to tell him what to do, but instead tried to encourage
him. In other words we told him that it's not uncommon for people to fail AFF levels

And you did a great thing....you helped him, without giving advice.

Again you did great, and I hope you helped....

I am not an AFF I....I helped one of the AFF I's at Zhills learn to jump (once her AFF I's LET me). I helped to teach her to pack (by letting her pack for me). I have over 1,000 more jumps than her, and helped her learn...Point is I don't teach her students. If a student walks up and asks me questions....I give them to an AFF rated jumper. I am not qualified to teach AFF. I will not do it. It is not that I don't know how to teach (I tought martial arts for years, and have a S/L I, and Tandem I). But I will not give advice to a student....That is why we have instructors.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skybytch 273]

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As for me having knowledge....How do you know I have a clue?

I know because I read your posts. Other than this one minor difference of opinion, I agree with most of what you post.

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I know it is easy to ask here, and you can do it at 1AM (to be honest, if you call me at 1AM to ask me this kinda question, I am not going to be happy)

That's the big benefit of these forums; you don't have to be at the dz to ask a question.

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But there are WAY to many people here that say something, and don't let you know that they really don't have a clue.

Which is part of why there are moderators here. Greenies don't just lock threads and try to keep threads on topic... we also act as "BS detectors" in the hopes that inaccurate and unsafe information will be countered by someone who does know something.

[eames 0]

Ron: "As for me having knowledge....How do you know I have a clue?"

Skybytch: "I know because I read your posts. Other than this one minor difference of opinion, I agree with most of what you post."

Bad logic Skybytch. A student could "agree" with what a 100 jump wonder posts, that doesn't mean the 100 jump wonder has a clue. The fact is, you don't really know anything about Ron. You believe he's credible because most of his posts match your own philosophy.

Credentials on dropzone.com are a lot different than real credentials. It makes me laugh that the majority of "answers" in these forums are provided by jumpers with 350 jumps, or riggers-in-training, etc.. It doesn't seem to matter what qualifications a person actually has, it's all about post numbers....

Jason

[eames 0]

I'm not saying that dropzone.com isn't useful, but any information gathered here must be used with a high degree of skepticism.

Jason

[Ron 10]

And thats all I am saying....

I was begining to think I was stupid, and could not get my point out there.

I of course could still BE stupid.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[a97virago 0]

Ron et al.

You made your point about taking all advice received here with more than just a grain of salt long before your initial rant!

Perhaps I should re-phrase my original question now that we are all in agreement...

I'm interested in finding out the particular characteristics of different types of Canopies from those who have flown more than one canopy.

For argument sake, assume the same wingloading on each type of canopy!

Larry A-43434

[Ron 10]

Well what have you jumped?
What do you want?
What is most important to you?
Soft openings?
Stability?
Less chance of Mal's?
Zippy in turns?
You want to do Demo's?
Swoop landings?
CRW?

These all need answers.

But basics:
7 cell's seem more docile. They don't turn as fast,and don't glide as well as a 9 cell. The Specter is one of the best opening canopies I have ever seen. The Triatalon is a good canopy that started the 7 cells being popular again.
The Omega is another 7cell. I don't have any info on this one. Very good canopies, and are very good intermediate canopies.

The more tapered the wing (Eliptical) it is the faster the canopy will be. It will also turn faster than a true "square"

Sabre 1. Typical "Square" canopy...Is slightly faster than the same size Stiletto. Very reliable openings, sometimes on the harder side.

Sabre 2. Has a slight taper to it. Opens soft, and turns faster than the Sabre 1.

Stiletto, Cobalt, Crossfire...9 cell called (Eliptical).
Open softest of them all, turn faster, and have a better glide angle. Some of the "Elipticals" have twitchy openings, and must be flown during the openings (I personally have 4 cutaways from line twists on a Stiletto).

Airlocks. 2 companys make Airlocked canopies. Big Air sports, and PD (under license from Big Air). The Airlocks allow the canopy to be loaded a little more heavily. They are also designed to handle turbulance better than "open" designs. Big Air makes several types. One is "Square" the Lotus, and one is "Eliptical" the Samuri (Spelling?). PD makes the Vengence, it is "Eliptical"

Cross Braced...this allows you to load the hell out of these canopies...They are for very experiance pilots, and there are several types out there, including some with more cells than others.

Material....

Zero P. A very slick and hard to pack material...It does not allow much air to pass through the material.

F-111. Easy to pack , but they don't last as long, and don't do so well with high wingloads.

Hybrids....there are several canopies that are part Zero P and part F-111. They claim to have the benifits of both....Never really seemed to catch on big.

But what you pick depends on what you want....Want soft openings? Get the Tri or the Specter. Want better glide? Get the Sabre 2...Want faster turns? Try a Cobalt or Stiletto? Don't like higher rates of Mals? Want a supper swoop machine, and can handle it? Velocity, or Xaos is what you might want.

Even with all this info....you still don't have a total picture, and as general as I tried to be I bet there are going to be people telling me that a Cobalt opens better than a Stiletto...another guy is going to say the Stiletto flies better, and he will say the first guy is a jerk that doesn't have a clue...Then a guy with a Crossfire will say that both Stiletto and Cobalt can't match his canopy..And he is gonna say that the other 2 morons can't swoop. Then there will be a guy that says that if you want to swoop you need a super rocket 45 cross braced airlocked with JATO rockets strapped to your ass. this guy will have 100 jumps and say that he is a "gifted" swooper because he is not like all the other pilots that have killed themselves...HE is smarter than they were, and will never get hurt.

The only thing all these guys will agree on is that I don't have a clue to anything, and they will also agree I am ugly, and my dog does not even love me. They will also make comments about my Mom.

You would do much better calling PD, Atair, Flight Concepts,Big Air, ect..... and talking to them.

But what do you want?

Have fun.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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they will also agree I am ugly, and my dog does not even love me. They will also make comments about my Mom.

You're ugly and your mom hates you. But I won't say anything about your dog.

PS: You last post was a good read.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rgoper 0]

Ron:

hell, there for a minute i didn't think you were gonna say what was really on your mind! good stuff, well put! take care, be safe.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[a97virago 0]

This is what I was looking for! Thank you! I just needed an idea of what made each canopy diffierent. I know that now every canopy is right for every skydiver, just didn't know what made them each unique! That was well written, informative and gives me a lot to think about and talk about with my DZ Staff!

Blue Skies!
Larry

p.s. I never DID believe the post about jumping a 95sf canopy! I may be inexperienced, but I'm not gullible!

Larry A-43434

[AggieDave 6]

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Hybrids....there are several canopies that are part Zero P and part F-111. They claim to have the benifits of both....Never really seemed to catch on big.

Yeah they have! As student canopies, have you ever flown a Navigator? In the hands of the right pilot it can actually be swooped fairly well (not 200ft, mind you, but not bad), but in the hands of a student with an appropiate student wingloading, it will open on heading, soft and fly reliably. Giving good flair (hella better then those ragged out Mantas) and nice landings.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohanW 0]

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The more tapered the wing (elliptical) it is the faster the canopy will be. It will also turn faster than a true "square"

I agree with the second statement, however, I would like a clarification on the first.
Do you mean a tapered wing has more forward speed than a square one, all else (wingload, trim, size, etc.) being equal? I have a hard time believing this.
Aside from that, does ellipticism (sp?) have any influence on toggle pressure? Toggle range? And do elliptical canopies dive more in turns than squares? Or are these unrelated?

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The only thing all these guys will agree on is that I don't have a clue to anything, and they will also agree I am ugly, and my dog does not even love me. They will also make comments about my Mom.

If you insist.

I don't believe you have a dog. I'd like to see a picture of it, and of you, and of your mom. In bikini. Taken when she was 17.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Squeak 17]

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if I want gear advice...I ask a rigger.

If i want gear advice I reserch 1st, maufactures, jumper and instructors and even here.
I would however rcomend that your get some material from your governing body, re: types of canopies and flight characteristics etc...
The APF has PDF files of this and I'm sure the USPA does too.

I feel that sometime ppl ask here before they (or instead of) look elsewhere in oder to short cut the research process. This can have some very serious inherent flaws. Very few ppl here have ALL the info and some of it, well meaning as it is can be dodgy and even dangerous.
Talk to the USPA, APF BPA or what ever and get some offical readinf material, you'll feel heaps better.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Dude I'm not the who started this thread asking for canopy advice.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhreeZone 20]

USPA does'nt really have anything with gear. They only briefly mention different canopies in the SIM.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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Replying to:
Re: [Ron] Types of Canopies by AggieDave
Post:

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Hybrids....there are several canopies that are part Zero P and part F-111. They claim
to have the benifits of both....Never really seemed to catch on big.



Yeah they have! As student canopies, have you ever flown a Navigator? In the hands of
the right pilot it can actually be swooped fairly well (not 200ft, mind you, but not bad),
but in the hands of a student with an appropiate student wingloading, it will open on
heading, soft and fly reliably. Giving good flair (hella better then those ragged out
Mantas) and nice landings.

Yes, I have jumped a Navigator....We need to jump them to tell students how to fly them.

Maybe I should have said that they never caught on with EXP. jumpers. Students don't buy main's for themselves very often.

And this is an example of where people start to correct me.

We already had the "your dogs ugly, and your Mom does not love you part"....All we need now is the 100 jump wonder with all the answers.

And Dave...you should jump a new Manta...not that bad at all.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I agree with the second statement, however, I would like a clarification on the first.
Do you mean a tapered wing has more forward speed than a square one, all else
(wingload, trim, size, etc.) being equal?

The design of an elliptical wing does a few things.
The taper of the wing is more than from the front to the back...It also tapers from the top skin to the bottom skin.
This reduces drag from the vortex that is created by the wing as it creates lift....you see, some of the high preasure on the bottom of the wing spills around the end cells...The amount of "spill" creates a Vortex....this vortex is almost all added drag. If the top and bottom skin taper to meet, it reduces the amount of the spilling, and reduces the vortex.

So, yes with all being equal, the elliptical wing will be faster....The Sabre has a more aggressive trim than a Stiletto, so they can seem faster due to the increase in dive.

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does ellipticism (sp?) have any influence on toggle pressure?

Short answer...yes. Long answer....Don't know why, call Kallend.

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Toggle range?

Yes only because the aspect ratio of the eliptical canopies are mostly greater than a square, and it will respond quicker to input, so it does not need as much....You CAN have the same range, but at a much faster turn rate.

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And do elliptical canopies dive more in turns than squares?

Most ellipticals dive LESS than squares. It (and this is a wild ass quess here) might have to do with the rate of turn being more on a square....Which would mean it spends more time in the turn than an elliptical.

I hope this helps....

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Squeak 17]

yeah I know

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?