GQ_jumper 4 #26 May 31, 2006 actually on the GK video on exit they are going just over 180 and terminal they are going exactly 180. there's a road directly below them you can use as a good heading reference. everytime i do block 1 we end up going about 180, it just feels faster than trying to translate the pieces with any less rotation, even though by doing this you are moving the pieces 360 degrees relative to each other which is more than required. Ron, so the penalty for shearing the inter too much would be 3 points for an omission?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 May 31, 2006 Quote Ron, so the penalty for shearing the inter too much would be 3 points for an omission? Thats where "omission" and "intent" get ugly. If the judge thinks you are trying to shear so much that you are trying to short change the inter....Well thay make a call. They only have three options really: 1. Give you the point. 2. Bust you. 3. Judge it as an omission. The problem comes with the way judges differ. At one nationals the judges were briefed to give the competitors benefit of the doubt...The next year they were told to make sure we showed it to them. Ons set of judges liked how Majic rotated the camera guy, the next set busted them for it. So if *could* be judged as an omission. *I* most likely would not since it would be relative to the other piece. However, I also liked the zip star and would let you rotate it as much as you could. But others will bust you for it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 May 31, 2006 Yup, it comes to down to how the judges feel that day. Our 'best' block 1's the pieces turn almost exactly 180. Just like our best 18's and 6's get about 180 also per piece. We aren't good enough to purposely try to 'cut off TOO much' on a shear. So the answer to my real question is "depends". Make sure to ask before the meet starts. Final note here though - if the requirement is 'relative' rotation, then the rules are unclear and teams have to rely on the old "this is just how it is" line. All the discussions here speak specifically to rotation relative to the earth - that's not centerpoint to centerpoint relative turning - I don't see anything on the cards that looks like old terra. Thus, this is why I ask these annoying questions. I like to learn. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 May 31, 2006 Quote you are moving the pieces 360 degrees relative to each other which is more than required. that doesn't make sense unless you end up back in the snowflake where you started - or go that far and then backup 90 to the offset.... Do the geometry - the "relative" angle cut from start to finish (assume each piece is 12 feet long and 3 feet wide - 2 big guys) and the center point is perfectly in the middle) - sweeps out a 333 degree swipe (360 - invtan(3/6)) regardless of how much the pieces spin on their own axis. The cards call out static non-relative angles, but the rules call out relative. And we wonder why it's hard to be a judge (trying to make the money for his rent, when his ho's won't listen to him, etc etc...) I'm off topic now, but got my answer. THANKS all you guys edit: ignore the 2nd picture, it has NOTHING to do with relative angle, only absolute angle ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 May 31, 2006 Quote So the answer to my real question is "depends". Make sure to ask before the meet starts. Why? Are you guys good enough to change how you do something to make the judges happy? Quote Final note here though - if the requirement is 'relative' rotation, then the rules are unclear and teams have to rely on the old "this is just how it is" line. All the discussions here speak specifically to rotation relative to the earth - that's not centerpoint to centerpoint relative turning - I don't see anything on the cards that looks like old terra. From the SCM: 3. Where degrees are shown, (180º, 270º, 360º, 540º), this indicates the approximate degrees and direction of turn required to complete the inter as indicated. 4. The degrees shown are approximately that amount of the subgroup’s centerpoint to be presented to the centerpoint(s) of the other subgroup(s). So it seems to me that it is to the other sub group, and that the ground has nothing to do with it. Which is why I had no issue with the old Zip Star bit....Other than it just being a blast! Quote Thus, this is why I ask these annoying questions. I like to learn. Well if it were not for these questions, you would just annoy us with stories of flaming lawn mowers But most of the answers you seek are in the SCM. However, you need a team of lawyers to some times figure out what they mean."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 May 31, 2006 Quote Are you guys good enough to change how you do something to make the judges happy? Do you mean, can I be sloppier to make the direct AND relative rotations blatantly obvious. HECK YES, hold my ground and force the extra travel on the outside people, then rotate like crazy while closing grips - but that sucks, but I can always make it sloppier. I want to be good enough to go the other way.... Quote So it seems to me that it (rotation) is to the other sub group, and that the ground has nothing to do with it. That's the whole point I'm enjoying the discussion on. So either the judges are watching the actual piece rotation, vs watching the path of the center points rel to each other, or some bit of both. Thanks for the input, I liked the old zip/star too. i'm just asking to see what people think, we'd still just do it like always. "the SCM has it" reading para 4 (in the context of 3), then rotation relative to earth shouldn't matter one bit, the background could be a pure solid screen and the cameraman could be changing his viewpoint constantly and it should still be judgable. But only one person voted that way, and it wasn't you, it was the engineer......... that's why I ask. I don't want a team of lawyers, just my friends here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #32 May 31, 2006 and whats wrong with a team of lawyers??? I think we could put together a pretty good all attorney 4- way!!!! Steve Gt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #33 May 31, 2006 Quote and whats wrong with a team of lawyers??? I those judges better watch out for you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #34 June 1, 2006 sweeps out a 333 degree swipe (360 - invtan(3/6)) regardless of how much the pieces spin on their own axis. Quote you win this time BatmanHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 June 1, 2006 Quote sweeps out a 333 degree swipe (360 - invtan(3/6)) regardless of how much the pieces spin on their own axis. Quote you win this time Batman I like pie. We just purchased Batman begins. And 4way is fun. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #36 June 1, 2006 I like pie. We just purchased Batman begins. And 4way is fun. Quote (in a ralph wiggum voice) i eated the purple berries, and they taste like burning, and then i spin the pieces til i get dizzy and throw up on my kitty katHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
