Creating a newbie 4way team question

[soarfree 0]

Hello! An experienced jumper at my DZ suggested I try to form a 4way team for the rookie NSL division for next year. I will be talking to the experienced 4 way teams at my DZ for further advice, but since it's at least another few weeks until I'm back there to chat I have a question...

Should we try to form teams according to fall rate? I fall darn fast and it's everything I can do to slow down while my buddy is bending in half even with appropriate suits. So for newbies do you form a team with people who fall like you or just get weights/suits to help make up the difference and learn to fly together better?

I read the FUN 4way team article and it was very helpful, but if anyone has any advice or input I would appreciate hearing that too!

Thanks & blue skies!

Well behaved women rarely make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

[AMax 0]

It is harder to adjust the personalities than the fall rates. Of course, there is a limit but suits and weighs can do a lot.

I would start from defining a goal for yourself and your future team (assuming that you are a driving force), discussing the goals and plans with experienced people at DZ and looking for people who can commit to these goals. Experienced people at your DZ might already know somebody who can fit in your team. Start as early as possible because forming a team takes time.

[Dougiefresh 0]

Keep me updated Amy. I can always put on weights. Although you probably don't want me on your team after the way I flew this weekend. My jump with Ferris didn't go any better, I guess I had some subliminal shit going on that made me tense.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[smooth 0]

Browse through the Airspeed Articles link at the top of this forum, in particular

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/articles/FormingaTeam.shtml

Good luck in your quest and HAVE FUN !!! 4-way rocks!

[Albatross 0]

They said it. Fallrates and skill at your level can be worked out. Form a team by commitment, goals and personality. You need people who all want similar things. You need people who are commited to those goals and have the resources to put in. And you MUST HAVE people you can work with for a significant period of time.

Chris

[AMax 0]

Albatross:
Scientific approach to team building

To add:
- Make a careful financial plan (how much you will pay for jumps, video, coaching, wind tunnel, travel, competition fees, gear maintaince, food, ect) and make sure everyone’s ok with this plan before you start. If some of your teammate candidates are not comfortable with spending whatever you planned, you can negotiate this, but make sure you get a firm financial commitment as a team BEFORE you start.
- Get some tunnel training (ideally together with your teammates) as early as possible.

And yes, only get some coaching from qualified people at your DZ and learn how to politely cut/avoid everybody else harassing you with 4-way advice every time you lay on creepers.

[Albatross 0]

Max has it right figure most of it out early and get commitments firmly. Not understanding how much it will cost or arguments about how to do things will cause more problems than 18s or 22s ever will.

Chris

[quade 4]

And, uh, one other thing . . . if you intend on actually going to some local meets, be sure you include a camera flyer in your planning.

People spend a lot of time, money and effort on tunnel time, travel, coaching, gear . . . and then ignore the 5th member of their team.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[soarfree 0]

Doug - are you kidding? You were one of the people I was thinking about talking to.

I had a great time on our jump and I think if you eat a lot of pizza this winter we can hang Ha ha, maybe just some weights
We are quite nicely matched in our experience (or lack thereof!) - let's chat!

Well behaved women rarely make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

[soarfree 0]

Thanks everyone for all your advice, info, and pm's. I'll be doing some more reading on the topic. This is very exciting!

Well behaved women rarely make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

[Albatross 0]

Quade is very right about having a good camera flyer. Having one that shoots decent video but is reliable and easy to work with is a big help.

Chris

[Ron 10]

Teams can be fun if you have the right attitudes.

They can take all the fun out of it if you don't.

Fall rates can be fixed much easier than a bad teammate or a teammate with different goals.

I knew a team last year that had a pretty damned good jumper on it. She was a pain in the ass to deal with. It really screwed the team.

Another team was looking for a 4th. They found a good skydiver with a good attitude. His lack of money ruined that team.

In order:
1. Attitude
2. Finances/Goals
3. Skill (fall rate)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[daveb 1]

Quite right. However, I have observed some camera flyers do not hang with the team, then kvetch when they are not included in team activities. Being part of a team requires teamwork on all sides; but I'll accept that often the camera flyer is ignored, even if unintentionally.

The rest of the advice others provided is spot on. Fall rates are much easier to fix than personalities, and it hurts when an otherwise good teammate cannot keep up due to funding. The most important aspect of a team is a common goal -- this will help you work through the inevitable rough spots and build respect for your teammates, whether the goal is to turn medal points or just to link up consistently in freefall. Allow each other to make mistakes without pointing fingers and enjoy the jumps.

[dgskydive 0]

Forget everything else and find three friends! Then build a team with those friends. Make sure you guys all want the same thing out of your experience. Make sure you can get along well away from jumping. It is more important to have 4 people that can get along and understand each other.

Do you want to learn? Do you want to win? DO you want to have a good time? Finding 4 people that want the same thing and can stick to the program is harder then it seems. Have fun while you do it.

BTW get some asprin, lot's of asprin!

Dom

[foxyroxtail 0]

Did you say rookie team???!!!!!

Just grab 3 folks and sort it out as you go. Rookie teams in the leauge are for just that! If you get too caught up too soon in trying to make it perfect the first time you'll never be willing to try it again if it doesn't work out.

Go play. Keep it all smiles, and remember, you learn more in the failure of "doing" than in the success of "trying".

Pam

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[murphyka 0]

This year was my first year to compete in 4-way. I had an idea of what to look forward to, but got tons more out of it than I thought.

All of the advice given here is completely true and should be given alot of thought even if you are going to the rookie division.

Make sure that you set common goals for the team and try to stick with them. Our main goal was to learn as much as we could while still maintaining a fun relaxed atmosphere. As we progressed, we all started expecting more out of ourselves and the team as a whole. We naturally became more competitive which made us want to train more often than our initial commitment. This is where making the financial commitment is so important. You will tend to spend more money than you thought if you are not strict with your goals.

Let's face it, not all of us have extra money to throw around. It is very easy to put yourself in a bind if you don't stick to your goals.

As far as finding people that fall at the same rate, I would say that it isn't that important. After jumping together for a while, fall rate issues will become almost second nature.

Good Luck and have tons of fun!!!

Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

[4WayXena 0]

I would completely agree with everyone who has posted thus far.

Putting together a team is one thing, keeping it together is another. Personalities and common goals are the key to this. Some of the best flyers in the country cannot attain their dreams of being on a winning team because they cannot be good team mates themselves. And sometimes you find the greatest group of folks in the world to jump with, your sides ache from laughing so much but you may not attain the goals you want because it's not serious enough. Your first team should be about fun, learning and being humble about your abilities.

Finances really play into it. It's really cool to have matching jumpsuits but could the money be better spent buying some tunnel time or a coach? Can you afford 6 jumps a day or 10? Look at the over all goal of jumps, coaching costs, beer and pizza costs, and video guy costs. In addition to the jumps themselves, the video playback is one of the most effective training tools you have.

Sometimes, you can find an experienced local coach who is willing to help you out for a few jump tickets or free. It's just a matter of asking the right person.

Time considerations are a big one. Once you get together some people who are interested, make sure they can afford the time you all agree to train. For a rookie team 3-4 jumping days a month wouldn't be a bad idea.

Keep in mind one thing - 4way is the great humbler. You will become a better skydiver as you train your way thru all the formations over and over again. And you will also learn you can always do something better. 4way can push you as far as you let it physically and mentally.

Have fun and keep it real.

[rehmwa 2]

Here's one that bit us good a couple years ago
"Common goals"

Be specific. Everyone will have a top goal of "having fun". That's way too general even if you wouldn't normally think so. Fun is different for each person - for me it was training hard and getting fast and really trying to figure it all out. Honestly, that is fun for me and two of the others. For one of our teammates, fun was just skydiving with his friends no matter what happened. It took a bit to figure this out. Nobody was wrong, but the Type A vs Type B approached really made it difficult.

My current team has the same definition of 'fun' and we are now having a lot of fun. We also plain like to hang out together. It only took 3 years to find, hopefully we can keep it together for a couple more....

So be specific to make sure you're compatible.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants