jlmiracle 7 #1 July 19, 2004 So a few years ago someone tried to start a league in our region. He had one of the meets scheduled at a dropzone with a Cessna 182. We inquired, about what aircraft he was having brought in for the competition, and his reply was" none, we will be using the "honor" system". We declined to compete. Has this ever been done before and was it successful? I know this might sound trollish but I was just making sure I'm not the nut in the case. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #2 July 19, 2004 Are you serious??? What a load of crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #3 July 19, 2004 QuoteAre you serious??? What a load of crap. Unfortunately I am serious. Needless to say nothing ever happened with that league. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #4 July 19, 2004 Can you explain how a C-182 relates to the honor system? I'm sure there's a huge, blatant variable about 4-way that I'm missing here, unless . . . is it that there's no room for a cameraman on the plane? Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #5 July 19, 2004 Quoteis it that there's no room for a cameraman on the plane? Ding....182s are 4 seaters. Unless the pilot watchs your dive, the point count would be based on an honor system of the jumpers involved. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hipgnosis 0 #6 July 19, 2004 Quotehuge, blatant variable I like that, and I'm sure our teams video guy will like being called that as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #7 July 19, 2004 QuoteHas this ever been done before and was it successful? I just don't see how this is possible, even if everybody is perfectly honest. We've been busted for incorrect grips that we didn't notice in freefall. Also, although I can guess, I can't tell you exactly when we hit 35 seconds and what point we were on when it happened. Not to mention, if it's an NSL meet where the scores are used to calculate national rankings, the meet shouldn't count. It just wouldn't be fair to teams in other leauges that are scored by the book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #8 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteis it that there's no room for a cameraman on the plane? Ding....182s are 4 seaters. Unless the pilot watchs your dive, the point count would be based on an honor system of the jumpers involved. The 182 I jump from is a 5 jumper acft...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #9 July 20, 2004 I remember reading an letter from Bill Dause. He wrote Parachutist complaining that requiring camera would put the cost out of reach for many teams. Before that I assume they used a telescope of sorts to judge the meet. Teams did a few less points and exited from 10 or so. I am guessing this was 20 years ago. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 July 22, 2004 QuoteThe 182 I jump from is a 5 jumper acft... That's scarry. Tell us more.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 July 22, 2004 Quote That's scarry. Tell us more. Not really, you don't really jump at 182 DZs so you probably don't realize this is do able safely and legally. You can have a wide bodies 182 that is STCed for 5 jumpers with 5 sets of seatbelts. Usually the plane has wing extensions and an engine upgrade, somtimes not. Without the wing extensions, the weight limit is the same, so its a moot point, with the extensions it makes a difference, since it raises the allowed weight limit. Hell, Forrest McBride has Mean Green, which is a '56 narrow body that's STCed for 5. Kinda kinda cramped, though...still climbs like a SOB (he's got just about every go fast trick available). It basically climbs like a S. Otter, while keeping everything within limits and not overstressing on the way up or shot cooling the engine on the way down. So please don't assume its "scary" and attempt to give a DZ a bad name just because you don't know. Not everyone can afford to buy, maintain and fly S. Otters.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 July 22, 2004 Dave. I haven't allways had the silverspoon of Turbine heaven in my mouth. I grew up at a DZ the had a Caravan and a 182 with wing modifications which I have hunderd of jumps out of. So those STC's you speak of. Sure they have 5 seat belts. What assumed weight when figuring the CG for the FAA was used for each jumper? It ain't right. The A/C was not designed for that load. You have the amazing experience to have been in an A/C crash and survive. Do you really think thigs would have gone better if there were 5 in that plane?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 July 22, 2004 QuoteWhat assumed weight when figuring the CG for the FAA was used for each jumper? It ain't right. The A/C was not designed for that load. Oh, I know that its a low weight compared to real life, the point is, just because it's STCed for 5 doesn't make it scary, means it has to be done righ. Limit certain loads to 4 (or 3 if you have to), keep it within the weight and balance. That's why the wing extensions make such a big deal, it increases the useful load by a considerable number. QuoteDo you really think thigs would have gone better if there were 5 in that plane? Its funny you bring that up, that plane was a wide body that was STCed for 5, had flap gap seals, aleron seals, but the extensions hadn't been put on it yet, so we watched weights closely (as we still do with our jumpcraft). Since I'm a "big boy" and weigh more then your average jumper, with me on the load we limited to just 4 so we were still within weight. Had there been 5 on board wouldn't have mattered, as long as we had been within weight. My point is, don't just say its scary, it could wig out a lowbie/make a DZ look bad. Just because a 182 flies with 5 doesn't mean that its over the weight limit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 July 22, 2004 In the end, it's always 'weight' that matters, not number of people. It's about physics, not lift tickets. Isn't 6 100 lb passengers lighter than 4 200 pound passengers? The airplane doesn't know how many. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #15 July 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteis it that there's no room for a cameraman on the plane? Ding....182s are 4 seaters. Unless the pilot watchs your dive, the point count would be based on an honor system of the jumpers involved. I have seen 6 peeps including the pilot in a 182 once. Not saying when or where though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #16 July 23, 2004 5 including the pilot is standard; I've been one of 6 including the pilot. But it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away (I have no idea if the plane was a widebody that was STC'd for 5 jumpers, and it was before anyone wore seat belts in jump planes). I appear to have lived. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #17 July 23, 2004 QuoteDave. I haven't allways had the silverspoon of Turbine heaven in my mouth. I grew up at a DZ the had a Caravan and a 182 with wing modifications which I have hunderd of jumps out of. So those STC's you speak of. Sure they have 5 seat belts. What assumed weight when figuring the CG for the FAA was used for each jumper? It ain't right. The A/C was not designed for that load. You have the amazing experience to have been in an A/C crash and survive. Do you really think thigs would have gone better if there were 5 in that plane? Bear in mind that since the original 4-seat 182's were produced with a gross weight rating of 2550 lbs, the gross weight rating of later a/c was bumped up to 3100 lbs, so the weight capacity of the a/c varies with the year it was produced. Oh, and just for the record, I have jumped from 182 that carried a pilot and SIX jumpers."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerrcoin 0 #18 July 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteDave. I haven't allways had the silverspoon of Turbine heaven in my mouth. I grew up at a DZ the had a Caravan and a 182 with wing modifications which I have hunderd of jumps out of. So those STC's you speak of. Sure they have 5 seat belts. What assumed weight when figuring the CG for the FAA was used for each jumper? It ain't right. The A/C was not designed for that load. You have the amazing experience to have been in an A/C crash and survive. Do you really think thigs would have gone better if there were 5 in that plane?Bear in mind that since the original 4-seat 182's were produced with a gross weight rating of 2550 lbs, the gross weight rating of later a/c was bumped up to 3100 lbs, so the weight capacity of the a/c varies with the year it was produced. Also bear in mind that the max weight includes fuel. If it's safe to do so, given temperature and density altitude conditions, the pilot can trade off fuel for a jumper. Jump planes typically fuel for 2 or maybe 3 cycles at most to carry everyone. If the plane were only to do 1 lift for a hop & pop off a long runway on a cold day at sea level...many factors involved. Entirely possible though.edited:due to my confusion over definition of gross weight Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #19 July 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe 182 I jump from is a 5 jumper acft... That's scarry. Tell us more. I've jumped from 5 different 182s, and all were 5 seaters. They all have five seatbelts. wrt to fuel. I don't know about the others, but we fly ours on ~quarter tanks.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #20 July 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe 182 I jump from is a 5 jumper acft... That's scarry. Tell us more. I've jumped from 5 different 182s, and all were 5 seaters. They all have five seatbelts. wrt to fuel. I don't know about the others, but we fly ours on ~quarter tanks. Okay for clarification the 182 they had only carried 4 jumpers. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #21 July 27, 2004 I'm just curious... what's the seating arrangement for 5 jumpers in a 182? I did 7 182 jumps last weekend and I just can't figure out where you'd put another person. MAYBE it would work with people on their knees instead of sitting down. So how do you do it? My ass is still sore from sitting in that thing for so long. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 July 27, 2004 With a widebody 182, the configurations I've seen used before was like the normal 4 setup, but with one more sitting beyond the JM spot, with the guy in the back turned straight, sharing space with the guy behind the pilot. I'm sure thats not the only way, that's just the way I've seen it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #23 July 28, 2004 2 behind the pilot. 3 down the other side. Each person is sitting down, facing the rear.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #24 July 30, 2004 Back in the good-old-days, 4-way competitions were routinely done from Cessnas. Judges stayed on the ground and watched the excitement through large (tripod-mounted) binoculars called "telemeters." At the 1983 World Cup judges used a fancy video camera, on a tripod with a ridiculously long lens. Larsen and Brusgard recently introduced an updated version of this video judging system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydance1954 0 #25 August 2, 2004 Yeah, I was there for that meet. They called it the "Dream Machine" It was black and white only, and by today's standards, the resolution sucked, but it was a great improvement over the previous system with the telemeters. It worked great in Claresholm because the weather was primarily dry, but in Victoriaville 8 years later, it sucked because of the predominance of clouds. Thank God for air to air.Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
