Judging question?

[AlexJ 1]

Hey guys,

Scenario 1: A team exits and the camera flyer gets flat or for some reason is unable to capture all the grips for the first or more formations, but the team is in frame. The team will receive NJ's until the first discernible formation.

Scenario 2: The same thing happens as in the first scenario but the camera flyer goes low, thus the team is out of frame for x seconds. When the camera flyer gets back on top, where does the scoring continue from? My understanding is that the team will receive NJ's until the first discernible formation, no matter where in the sequence the formation is. I have seen judging interpretations that do not score any points until the team gets to the top of the page ie: scoring only starts at the first formation in the sequence. This interpretation may have been to eliminate camera flyers from losing the team from frame while they omit a complex formation, and then getting them back in frame while they continue with an easy random sprint? This is not really feasible since will be noticed (and requires too much planning and precise timing to be effective) but could maybe be done once on the exit ie: the team exits, the camera flyer 'loses them from the frame' after getting the exit formation, and then gets them back in frame just as they complete the close of a block, or maybe even only on the following random.The NJ loss for the close of the block is easily made up with the random sprint following.

My understanding is that a team will only get NJ's until the first formation that can be judged, no matter where the formation is in the sequence. This has been confirmed by experienced competitors such as Airspeed but I am interested to know if anyone has a different understanding?

Scenario 3: Team exits, shows the first formation, the camera flyer loses the team from the frame and then gets them back to only see the close of the block ie: no inter is captured on video? How does the scoring work?

Thanks,
Alex

[quade 4]

In Scenario #3, is the first part of the block shown as being built correctly?

For instance, the jump is 1-B-A-D.

On exit we see all of the grips in the Snowflake, lose one of the subgroups out of frame during the inter and then see the Offset close?

OR . . . B-1-A-D? We see the Stairstep Diamond on exit. The team goes out of from for the Snowflake and we see it again for the close of the Offset?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AlexJ 1]

Yes, I am interested in both those scenarios, as well as a third one which is similar to the first, except that we never see the close of the snowflake, but rather just the B - ie: first snowflake is built, camera loses both subgroups and then gets them on frame to see the B.

Alex

[Ron 10]

If you don't show the inter, its a bust.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

From what our regional judge told me, NJ's are only really used on the immediate exit shot (grip out of frame or whatever). After that, it's another teammate and those are 2 point deductions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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From what our regional judge told me, NJ's are only really used on the immediate exit shot (grip out of frame or whatever). After that, it's another teammate and those are 2 point deductions.

Ya know thats a good thought....But that does not explain Airspeeds round 5 in Lake Wales then.

The NJ or bust question is not very well defined....Kinda like block 12's issues.

I kinda agree with that guys idea...But it is not defined to my knowledge...and I just passed my regional judge rating.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AlexJ 1]

Ok, it's an all random skydive and the camera flyer goes really low on exit. After 10 seconds he or she gets back on top and picks the team up in the middle of the sequence. Does the scoring start at the first formation that the judges can see or do they wait until the top of the page to start scoring? Thats what I am really after.

Al

[rehmwa 2]

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Ok, it's an all. . .first formation that the judges can see or do they wait until the top of the page to start scoring? Thats what I am really after.
Al

Scenario - 5 randoms, the camera doesn't get anything until point 3 - not even the initial exit bit. But the team goes through the dive in good faith without any issues had the video gotten it.

1 - start at point 3 and call 1 and 2 both busts (full bust, not NJ) - so you start one point in the hole (3 minus 4).

2 - just start counting at the sixth point (top of the page) - they lost the first 5 points (merely treat as an extra long exit transition to the first point), but what's left is clearly judgeable.

3 - First two points are NJ. Point 3 is 1st point.

4 - First point is NJ, second is full bust

With scenario 1 and 3 and 4, you just can't prove that the first two points ever were even attempted.

I'm betting number 3 is not even on the table.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[karlm 0]

Good question here .....!

I think the main question AlexJ is asking is: "What is the standard judging practice?"

I would think that once the team is in frame the scoring takes place and the rest are NJ's - as the team would have lost a fair amount of points due to the camera flyer there is no need to add a bust to the score.

If the first viewable footage is a inter, then the block would be scored as a NJ.

Here is three actual jumps that were done during competition and how they were judged.

Jump 1 - On exit camera flyer goes unstable/low on the exiting 2-Way, they continue to skydive the draw. Camera flyer takes 20 odd seconds to recover and get back up on the formation. Judges wait till 2-Way returns to top of sequence (page) before scoring points. Thus team scores a 2 on the dive.

The viewable footage shows 5 points, but since the judges waited till top of page, score ended on 2.

Would it have been better to hold on point one or continue as they did?

Judges decided not to incure busts, but rather deem all non viewable footage as NJ's and score from top of page.

Jump 2 - Camera flyer sets up camera in morning for jump off round in 2-Way, never checks sights. On review of footage team is filmed in top right of screen and spend most of the dive out of frame. (they moved in and out of frame the whole dive, but most grips were not seen). 2-Way team has no idea and continues with dive.

Judges look at footage, and since the team can be seen in and out of frame the whole dive, judges are able to determine where in the sequence the 2-Way is. On the odd occasion the team was in frame and built a random a score was given, otherwise the rest of the dive was NJ.

Judge deemed that since it was not a deliberate camera issue, and as the team would be loosing a large amount of points on NJ's the points in frame would be scored with no busts being given.

Jump 3 - 4-Way exits, camera flyer goes flat and a bit low on formation, team sees this and holds on first point (was a burner of a round), team can be seen holding point as camera flyer gets above team, who then continue dive. No Nj's or busts incured by team.

Judges deem that since the team can be seen holding the formation while camera flyer gets above them, they score from first point viewed.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[FeFe 0]

If you show the exit but don't show all grips it will be an NJ.
If you are still flat on the second figure some judges will give you an NJ, but some will give a bust for not showing complete separation. It becomes a practice to bust such situations (my team was busted on the Malevsky Cup this year). My communication with the judges show that they bust such situations not because the cameraflier is part of the team now and along with the team is responsible for presenting grips to the judges, but exactly because the judges do not see total separation.
If you get the exit but then loose the team, my understanding is that the scoring will start from the first judgeble formation (not from the beginning of the sequence/top of the page). The points which are not seen on video can not be neither busted not NJ'ed for the obvious reason that the video gives judges nothing to judge. This is a tricky situation because judges do not know if the team has followeed the sequence - so there is a chance that they may start judging from the top of the page.
If you get the team back to the frame on inter or end of block, we have another tricky situation. The scoring end of the block probably won't get scored (because the beginning of the block was not shown). The judges may also bust because they see the inter (or the end of block) but not the beginning.
On a completely different scenario, when the cameraflier does not show the exit of the team at all, the rules say

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If Judges cannot determine the start of the working time, the following procedure will be followed. Working time will start as the videographer separates from the aircraft and a penalty equal to 20% (rounded down) of the score for that jump will be deducted from the score for that jump.

[darkwing 5]

It is interesting to me that this quite realistic situation is subject to several different interpretations/consequences. I'm surprised that it isn't specifically clear in the rules. It should be.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[FeFe 0]

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It is interesting to me that this quite realistic situation is subject to several different interpretations/consequences.

And we are only talking good ol' plain FS here. You just don't wanna know what judging for Artistics looks like...