steve1 5 #1 September 5, 2002 The other day we were building a formation that was really floating. I was about a foot or two low and as hard as I would flare I couldn't seem to get back up. After about eight or ten seconds I was able to get up and come in my slot. I talked to a guy who has tons more experience than I and he said I should have flared harder. He said my legs & arms were still bent. I didn't think that mattered as long as you were doing the hug the beach ball routine and D-arching. At any rate I'd appreciate any tips on getting back up there. I'm also considering sewing in some dive loops or buying a jump suit with them. Thanks, Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #2 September 5, 2002 QuoteThe other day we were building a formation that was really floating. I was about a foot or two low and as hard as I would flare I couldn't seem to get back up. After about eight or ten seconds I was able to get up and come in my slot. I talked to a guy who has tons more experience than I and he said I should have flared harder. He said my legs & arms were still bent. I didn't think that mattered as long as you were doing the hug the beach ball routine and D-arching. At any rate I'd appreciate any tips on getting back up there. I'm also considering sewing in some dive loops or buying a jump suit with them. Thanks, Steve1 Due to a phenomemon called "interference drag", a formation of floaty people can always fall slower than an individual floaty person. The best ways to avoid being low are (a) don't go there, and (b) jump with people who actively work to maintain a good fall rate as the formation builds. If they can see you low and doing your part, they should do theirs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 September 5, 2002 If you were looking up at the formation then you actually got back into an arch. Turn your head sideways to see the formation and use your head as drag to dearch with too.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #4 September 5, 2002 At my Dz, the saying goes "Put a little altitude in your pocket" , in other words, stop above and out , then match the fallrate, then dock. On breaks, pop up just slightly in between points. You can always adjust down more than up. Also, experience will tell your brain "this formation is going to float so be ready" by looking at the jumpers size, the ability for air to flow between the grips etc. Just anticipate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoltan 0 #5 September 6, 2002 "a formation that was really floating" remember forever... it is not the formation falling slow, it is your ass going low... Sorry to say so direct, but the main idea of formation skydiving (relativ work) is to control your position and fall rate relative (!) to the formation. D-arching, ball huging, deadspidering, extend arems and legs migh help... but remember, it is unstable bodyposition, difficult to fly, you do not have a proper vision and takes way to long time to go back (not even talking about how ass you look on the video Yeah.. and the most iportant.... eeeevrybody went low in the begining... so do not feel frustrated not even for a sec... have fun and practice. blue skies z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #6 September 6, 2002 Quote"a formation that was really floating" remember forever... it is not the formation falling slow, it is your ass going low... Sorry to say so direct, but the main idea of formation skydiving (relativ work) is to control your position and fall rate relative (!) to the formation. D-arching, ball huging, deadspidering, extend arems and legs migh help... but remember, it is unstable bodyposition, difficult to fly, you do not have a proper vision and takes way to long time to go back (not even talking about how ass you look on the video Yeah.. and the most iportant.... eeeevrybody went low in the begining... so do not feel frustrated not even for a sec... have fun and practice. blue skies z Sorry, but I disagree. Formations with lots of compressed accordian grips or sidebodies can fall slower than any individual can fall. I can guarantee that my 10-way team could out float you on the "hand prop" formation www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/handprop.jpgso that you could never slow down enough to dock regardless of how soon you put on the brakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #7 September 6, 2002 JumperPaula and Kallend, I'm still trying to fly with what I learned back in the 70's when it comes to RW, but I think I am beginning to grasp what you mean by the ability of air to fly through a formation. On several jumps we have tried to get the base to fall faster by pulling ourselves closer together and arching harder. It sounds like it would be better to keep our arms extended, so the air flow is greater between us, rather than pulling our heads closer together. Is my perception correct on this one? Thanks for your input, I'm learning a lot. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #8 September 6, 2002 Steve - if you look at pictures of large formations from the 70's, and compare with large formations in the 90's and 00's, you will see that the recent formation designs are much more open. If you are falling at, say, 120mph, and another skydiver falling at the same speed comes close to you, even without taking grips, the combined drag of the pair of you can be 10% to 20% or more greater than than the drag when you are widely separated. This is called interference drag. This can slow you down to maybe 115mph without your having changed body position at all. On the 300 way attempts in 2000, the base was heavily weighted and fell at over 140mph as a 6-way round. By the time 100+ people had docked, the fall rate had dropped to 110mph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #9 September 6, 2002 Kallend, Thanks for the info. This is fascinating stuff. I've made lot's of jumps with B.J. Worth back in the 70's but noone knew much about RW back then. I really appreciate all the knowlege that is being passed down to us now. Thanks, Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 September 6, 2002 What do people think about coming back up to a formation on your back? I'm slowly learning some RW (scary, huh?), but I know I can slow waaaaay down on my back, much more then I can on my stomach and can still see the formation. Maybe that's because I'm a freeflier and fly like a wet newspaper on my stomach...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 September 6, 2002 Have you got protrack data to show the speeds on the back? If you went so low that you need to flip over to see the formation, then you need to stop wway higher up and slowly adjust fall rates. Unless you are using a tiny flat rig by fliping over on your back you are using your rig to simulate a big arch. Also its way harder to stay still on your back then it is on your stomach. All the Video I've seen of people back flying under formations and people shows them hanging on their wing in order to fall slow.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 September 6, 2002 QuoteHave you got protrack data to show the speeds on the back? Not yet, I have only recently purchased a Pro-Track, I'm just talking from experience with some smaller RW stuff I've done. This wasn't a statement of something to do, it was a question for the really experienced RW people, from a freeflier.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #13 September 6, 2002 Although far from the expert, I can see where pulling together in a formation, for example: a 6 way round, would allow each jumper to resume a better arch position with elbows back and less tension on the grips. A round with lots of tension gives me a mental picture of a formation that would tend to beg you to "fly flat" instead of with a naturally good arch. On formation such as compressed, my dropzone teaches to take low leg grips ("let's build these compressed's deep...") and make the formation wide to maintain a good fallrate. Although you would have a mental picture of a flat body position, the extra air you can allow between bodies will help it fall. As for using a 'back to earth' position to get back up if you go low,- Formation Skydivers usually like everyone flying belly to earth on the skydive, unless it's planned in advance, such as a hybrid or a cameraman's angle. We usually don't PLAN to go low. I would use traditional methods of recovery. I think you'll find the traditional methods the absolute best for slowing down when done properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #14 September 7, 2002 >I can guarantee that my 10-way team could out float you on > the "hand prop" formation > http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/handprop.jpgso that you could > never slow down enough to dock regardless of how soon you put on > the brakes. Betcha I could dock on that thing . . . Just have to surf the wake a bit more than usual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #15 September 8, 2002 Quote>I can guarantee that my 10-way team could out float you on > the "hand prop" formation > http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/handprop.jpgso that you could > never slow down enough to dock regardless of how soon you put on > the brakes. Betcha I could dock on that thing . . . Just have to surf the wake a bit more than usual. In the picture you'll see me on the extreme left and Chris "diverdriver" on the extreme right as the last to dock. We're both skinny guys, and we had the base well weighted up. It was still a matter of making a dynamic move to dock - that formation will fall at about 100mph unless everyone cooperates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoltan 0 #16 September 9, 2002 kallend, you do not have to sorry, you have right to disagree with me :) Still... the RW/FS jumps has one interesting behavior what most of the folks forget very easily... It is not about your absolute speed.. it does not metter if the formation has 100 or 140 mph fallrate (after the jump in the debrief it might be interesting information). It is about relative speed. It is about you and the formation. In the sky there is no speedmeter, you just feel it. you know it on the ground when you do dirt dive, that is it ia fast picture or slow, are the folks in the jump slow or fast. Do you need to take one tshirt over your jumpsuit or you need the use a tight and fast suit, or you might need to jump an old style RW suit. Before loading you must know if you can fly a fast body position or a bit more conservative box position or maybe a really extended super slow position. On the dirt dive you must know that you are falling like a rock so you better be close to the base, or you are slow and you should dock last. Got it? It is not about that 60 seconds.... and if you do the rest well you just simple need to brake in time before docking. As i already said.. You can show me even a super compressed 16 way with box grips where all jumpers are jumping oldschool rw suit and all are looking to the ground so floating like hell... it is still possible _NOT_ to go low :) blue skies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #17 September 9, 2002 Bill, Can you tell us more about surfing the wake. This is another thing I'm not familiar with. In an earlier post you mentioned when you break into your slot you need to keep your momentum going to get in and break through the turbulence and then stop to take grips. Does this wake lie on the very edge of the formation when you are at their level and I assume it is out from the formation up higher. To tell you the truth I've never noticed much of a wake from a formation, but I would like to know more about the wake if it can affect they way you fly. This is another thing that was unheard of back in the 70's. Thanks, Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chief 0 #18 September 16, 2002 It is easier to stay up then to get back up. I gained wieght, suit got a bit tight and I was frequently low. Got a bigger (right size) suit and try to stop above the formation. Hang in there, eventually it will work! Remember : have fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #19 September 16, 2002 I know it it harder to get back up than come down, but there is also the importance of coming into your slot almost level when working on a bigger formation. I was having an awful time coming in too steeply, for fear of going low, and then catching someone else's burble or dropping down on a formation and hitting it too hard. So at any rate I am being much more careful now to come in at about the same level (slightly above). And approaching at the same level as the other jumpers. This works very well, but it seems to me it also increases the chances of going low, when dealing with a floaty formation. In the jump I mentioned earlier I was only about two feet out from closing grips, maybe a foot low. So being able to flare hard and get back up a hair is very necassary. And maybe the others in the base should have been working at falling faster. That is why I wonder about dive loops. They may give you that added edge. I think my fall rate matched the others well enough. But it didn't work well that time. Feel free to add to this, I appreciate your input. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chief 0 #20 September 17, 2002 Steve: I have loops on my Bev suit and they do work well. Like anything, you need to practice with them a few times. After practice, they really halp me and my exit weight is 225 #. good luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsoutar 0 #21 September 27, 2002 Anticipation is the best defence. Flare early and react as soon as you see things are going to happen. If you do go low, realise it immediately, turn 90 degrees to the formation (you don't want to fly under it and really spoil your day), hug that beachball hard and with everything (forearms and head especially) and belly hunched up like it's just been punched (my girlfriend says it's like getting on top!!!!) then match the flall rate of the rest of the group and maintain it as you dock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites