Future of canopy piloting for people that aren't ready for a VK/Leia?

[lyosha 50]

I'm slowly inching my way to getting into HP landings, but not quite there yet.

There appear to have been lots of exciting things happening for people who are already great swoopers. But do any of you think the landscape for the road up to a VK/Leia will advance and make life more more blissful for those still on the path and not yet at the destination? Anyone have any read on the future of the crossfire class of canopies?

[Deimian 43]

lyosha

I'm slowly inching my way to getting into HP landings, but not quite there yet.

There appear to have been lots of exciting things happening for people who are already great swoopers. But do any of you think the landscape for the road up to a VK/Leia will advance and make life more more blissful for those still on the path and not yet at the destination? Anyone have any read on the future of the crossfire class of canopies?

I saw somewhere that they are planing to release 2 similar canopies with slightly different characteristics, but being both successors of the Crossfire 2. Also, you can take a look at some of the videos of the R&D department: https://vimeo.com/nzaerosports. The crossfire 3 prototypes look pretty cool....

[hodges 4]

There's thousands and thousands of jumps ahead of you yet on Sabre2's, Katanas, Velos etc.

I don't think the lack of any recently refined designs in these performance ranges is going to hold you back :).

P.S. What is the "destination"? Just stay on the path and enjoy every step.

[trigger 0]

No rush.. I started back in the day with a SA chuteshop ZP150, essentially a copy of a Sabre1.

Things always evolve and I'm sure the canopy designers design to target specific audiences and as already mentioned a Safire3 and a Crossfire3 are currently in the later stages of R&D and I'm sure PD etc has similar products in mind to cater for jumpers of all abilities that allow them to progress up the range safely with instruction and measured progression in mind.

Case in point is that it general observation with the current PD line is that they design their products with progression in mind and it has often been stated that the Sabre2, Katana, Velo is a good path to follow for jumpers interested in swooping to follow assuming that they take proper instruction and don't jump the gun.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

I always thought the difference between the Sabre 2 and the Katana was a little too big. With proper experience, coaching, mindset, etc it is certainly manageable, but man there is quite a difference between those two wings for sure.

I wonder if PD will focus on filling that gap a tad or if I am just way off base.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[Deimian 43]

EFS4LIFE

I always thought the difference between the Sabre 2 and the Katana was a little too big. With proper experience, coaching, mindset, etc it is certainly manageable, but man there is quite a difference between those two wings for sure.

I wonder if PD will focus on filling that gap a tad or if I am just way off base.

For me (and keep in mind that I didn't jump a Katana or a crossbraced canopy yet) it is surprising that there are so many Katanas out there. It is pretty close to the "ground hungryness" and sensitivity to input of a Velocity, but without the performance that comes with it. Why jump a Katana instead of a Velocity?

It looks to me that a more sensible approach than

Sabre 2 -> Katana -> Velocity -> Valkyrie

is

Sabre 2 -> Crossfire 2 -> Velocity (or a more tame crossbraced canopy and then a Velocity) -> Valkyrie/Petra

This is at least the path that I intend to follow (if I ever take it that far, I might stick to a Crossfire 2 class of canopy). Any opinion from the experts on this?

[Zlew 0]

Deimian

It looks to me that a more sensible approach than

Sabre 2 -> Katana -> Velocity -> Valkyrie

is

Sabre 2 -> Crossfire 2 -> Velocity (or a more tame crossbraced canopy and then a Velocity) -> Valkyrie/Petra

The Katana is a machine. IMO the key piece is you can start jumping it in the larger sizes and lighter wingloadings and learn the way modern swooping canopies dive/recover. (biggest velo is a 120). The Katana doesn't tend to porpoise out of a dive like a XF2 will at some wing loadings. IMO, if you learn to fly and swoop a Katana well, you are very well positioned to then move to a Velo. Then you can choose to start pushing the wingloadings.

For what it is worth- there is a guy at my DZ who jumps a Katana that outswoops most xbraced pilots.

[Deimian 43]

Zlew

The Katana is a machine. IMO the key piece is you can start jumping it in the larger sizes and lighter wingloadings and learn the way modern swooping canopies dive/recover. (biggest velo is a 120). The Katana doesn't tend to porpoise out of a dive like a XF2 will at some wing loadings. IMO, if you learn to fly and swoop a Katana well, you are very well positioned to then move to a Velo. Then you can choose to start pushing the wingloadings.

I am not sure I see the point. Common recommendations are to stay away from fully elliptical and very steeply trimmed canopies until having enough experience. Having enough experience goes together with high[ish] wingloads (if you want to swoop at least), as nobody that is into swooping will keep a WL of 1.0. So by the time you have enough experience for a fully elliptical canopy that dives so aggressively you'll have a high[ish] wingload (1.4+?). Given that situation you either upsize or you start jumping a Katana with little experience. Or you build a lot of experience in tame canopies with light wingloads.

I understand though that you can learn how modern canopies dive and recover in a larger size (sizes where crossbraced canopies are not available). But then 1 question pop in my head: Why the overlap, if a crossbraced of the same size can dig you out more efficiently and take you further in your swoop?

Zlew

For what it is worth- there is a guy at my DZ who jumps a Katana that outswoops most xbraced pilots.

Because the canopy doesn't swoop, the pilot does . Did that guy jumped a Velo? Does he swoop further in a Katana than in a Velo?

[Zlew 0]

The dive is what really sets the Katana apart. Fully elliptical has it's own set of risk/reward...but I've never jumped anything non xbraced that dives as easily, as hard, and recovers the way a Katana does. I still think learning the dive/recovery of something that behaves much more like a velo than a SA2 or XF2 on a wing that can be much bigger than a 120 is a benefit.

It is absolutely the pilot, but even this weekend at a boogie I heard people saying "it's just katana, and I already jump a velo" when talking about demo canopies. The Katana in the hands of someone who knows how to fly is a hell of a tool.

[Bufobufo 0]

The KA is like a utility tool with just enough tools on it so it's not cumbersome, yet have all the stuff needed to do about everything you need and even more so after some coaching.

Being experienced enough to jump a KA doesn't mean you have to have 1000 swoop jumps, but it doesn't hurt having enough knowledge to pilot it without putting you or anyone else in danger.

By having enough experience on your current canopy, fly it well and picking an appropriate wingloading on the KA, at least I didn't feel any drastic changes going from a Sabre2 to a Katana. But on the other hand;I'm one of those guys who fall in love with a canopy and keeps jumping it for a few hundred jumps at least and spend a season or two before starting to look for a new smaller canopy ;)

[stayhigh 2]

Zlew

***

It looks to me that a more sensible approach than

Sabre 2 -> Katana -> Velocity -> Valkyrie

is

Sabre 2 -> Crossfire 2 -> Velocity (or a more tame crossbraced canopy and then a Velocity) -> Valkyrie/Petra

The Katana is a machine. IMO the key piece is you can start jumping it in the larger sizes and lighter wingloadings and learn the way modern swooping canopies dive/recover. (biggest velo is a 120). The Katana doesn't tend to porpoise out of a dive like a XF2 will at some wing loadings. IMO, if you learn to fly and swoop a Katana well, you are very well positioned to then move to a Velo. Then you can choose to start pushing the wingloadings.

For what it is worth- there is a guy at my DZ who jumps a Katana that outswoops most xbraced pilots.

and Katana has much more rear power vs X-fires, and the fronts are much more manageable with Katana.
Openings are subjective, I like how Katana opening vs x-fire. Only difference it initial snatch, Katana has more, which lets me know that it came out of the bag, X-fire doesn't give you that, it just snivels.

Katana is the best non-xbraced canopy out there.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I'm sort of in the same boat right now. I've been jumping my KA-97 for the last 5 years, and love it. I want to go X-Braced, but in weighing the pro's & cons, I'm stuck.

Sure, the Velo might give me better harness control, deeper/longer flare, maybe more stability, but then I have to deal with the openings, the higher riser pressure etc.

The other side of the equation is that I'm jumping the Katana 97 @ 1.5WL. To get a Velo loaded around 2.0, I'd need a 74. Obviously that's a terrible decision, so I was considering a 90 or possibly an 84, but others are telling me that it would be a waste. I'm told that X-braces "fly big", so if I don't get a 79/74, it'll feel like a dog. I could downsize the Katana to an 89 and/or an 83, but I have reservations about doing that too. Not to mention that they're few and far between.

I like my Kat, I like the way it opens, I like the way it flies, but I do see distinct advantages to a Velo. Plus, they're dirt cheap right now since the VK came out.

Time will tell...

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[stayhigh 2]

if you have been flying KA 97 for the last 5 years, go for velo 79/74, otherwise it will be a waste of time, and don't go KA 89, that be even worse decision. It is all just a number(size of the canopy) after certain point. If someone else packs in velo 79 in your container and never tell you about it and if you never look up, you'll think that you have much bigger canopy than a 79.

get a comp velo if you can, they have higher snatch vs regular velo and slightly shorter snivel.

Velos do fly much better, it feels more on rail/track/solid, whatever you wanna call it, however you can't beat the openings on Ka. I've used my Katana as a camera/demo/big way wing. I'm a huge fan of Katana, I've went through 3 of them.

My least favorite was FX, opened like a sabre1 and flew like a brick.
Jfx flew very similar to FX, but had super awesome opening.
Vx and Jvx is fun if you get a one doesn't have a tail flutter, both openings are kinda questionable, some days good, otherwise horrible.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Jiggs 0]

Disagree with this advice!

Maybe go on a swoop course first, talk with a coach, see where your technique is at, what your goals are for the future and what a reasonable downsize approach would actually look like. You might be able to skip a wing size or two, or borrow some of the wings along the way.

Lightly loaded velocities feel like dogs (and not in a good way), but just because you are lightly loaded does not mean that you should skip all the sizes between. Maybe 1 but not 3.

If you have been happy with the 97 for the last few years, why not keep at it unless there is something specific you are not getting from it. If you want to go further, coaching first then make downsize plan. While you are lightly loaded a 97 is still a small wing and quite responsive.

Here is an idea - try some lead! I fly with 6kgs all the time so I am at my competition weight. It makes a considerable difference. With your size you should be able to wear up to 16kgs

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I totally agree. Going from a 97 to a 79 sounds insane to me. Would I generally be OK? Sure, but that's not a risk in willing to take at this point. Going to an 84 might not be too bad, but who knows until I try something.

It's just kind of a shitty place to be. On a small, lightly loaded katana, trying to bridge the gap to an appropriately sized xbrace. I'm sure there are women that have had this issue as well.

For now, I'm keeping the 97. I don't feel quite ready to bridge that gap yet, but I'm considering my options and taking steps to go down that road. The intent is not to rush it. I guess it'll be easier once I've jumped a velo too. Maybe I'll just hate it and decide to keep the kat. Going to a smaller one at that point might be a better option.

Maybe ill post an update later in the season or next year on what I decided to do.

Thanks for the advice though...both of you!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

I think you need to eat some cheeseburgers and pizzas......lots of them.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Dude, people hate me because I can eat anything I want, all day long and never gain weight. I'm 31 now, and I've weighed 125 lbs since I was 17. I've never crested 130lbs, even in the winter after xmas or something. My metabolism is insane...for now!

I do occasionally jump with lead, but it makes me feel fat, ha-ha.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[stayhigh 2]

is chris shortened name for christina?

i like girls that are between 125-135.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Jiggs 0]

"I do occasionally jump with lead, but it makes me feel fat, ha-ha"

Harden up! Nothing like 32 kgs of lead under a 69 canopy to make it go fast

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Unless you like your women with a penis...I'm probably not your type. Even if you do...I'm not your type. Haha

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[dqpacker 7]

at 125 you will be fine on a 79. with gear you would be what 145 which would put you at 1.8 to 1. just get a 75 so you don't look silly.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

[inline serious.jpg]

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[SickMonkey 0]

Vote DQ, Kerry King 2016

[danielcroft 2]

I have to disagree with the assessment that the KA is the best non-cross braced canopy on the market. I think it's important to note that, for people who don't swoop (this isn't *just* a swooping forum), the KA is certainly *not* the best non cross braced canopy and, even for people who do swoop, there are many considerations to include when making an assessment as to which canopy is *best*.

My personal experience with the KA (135 @ 1.2 and 120 @ 1.4) was that it opened really well, flew really well and landed like a champ. I really enjoyed flying it and was able to come to my own conclusions about the wing that *didn't* include "ground hungry" or "scary openings". I would also have similar things to say about the Stiletto but that's a different discussion, I suppose.

Having said that, the wing requires you to fly it every second it's open and, in that sense (and others), the KA is a very high performance wing that asks a lot of its pilot. In swooping terms, my opinion (as ill informed as it is compared to many people on this forum) is that the step between a KA and a VE is not a big one. You're talking about similar recovery arc and responsiveness (loading dependent of course) to a VE without the efficiency of a cross braced wing. What does that mean? When you're trying to dig out after making an inevitable mistake (we're all human, it happens) which is going to help you more? I feel pretty strongly that people treat the KA like an intermediate wing between the SA and the VE/VC when in fact it's not. The KA will reward a very active and diligent pilot but it's not going to help you with a short recovery arc or positive recovery cycle when you screw up.

The Crossfire 2 is a much more "intermediate" wing that has excellent openings and really fun flight characteristics. Harness input is quite responsive *and* it's a wing that will allow you to relax once it's open much more so than the KA will. I will disagree again that the KA and XF2 openings are similar. My average opening on a XF2 were good and, I suppose, in line with what StayHigh said, the *real* XF2 openings were incredible and somewhat equivalent to being gently nudged awake from a nice snooze and then hugged. Seriously. I've had enough of those openings on a XF2 to know they weren't flukes. As far as the comment about the rears, I always felt that the XF2 rears had more power in the them to the KA but I could be mis-remembering. The XF2 (119 @ 1.4 and 109 @ 1.6) *will* help you when you mess up by having a shorter recovery arc and a positive recovery cycle but you'll likely pay for those with "oh shit, I've popped up on recovery, now I'll have to stab out as the wing sinks" moments, I sure did.

To the original question of this thread, we're aware of wings being developed by both PD and NZA. The Katana2 (or whatever they're going to call it) has been teased by PD (we need more INFOS!) and has been shown to have a more Schuemann-y planform (more taper in the leading edge, 0 in the trailing http://spieltek.com/sunbirdsoaring/soaringarticle/schuemannwingplanformarticle.pdf) that is meant to increase efficiency of the wing over all. I'd like to see it with a slightly shorter recovery arc to make the step between the SA and KA a little less extreme. You'd surmise that the use of the Schuemann planform comes directly from experience learnt from the PI/Petra/VK/Leia. NZA is talking about two different versions of the Crossfire 3. They've said one will be in keeping with the Crossfire 2 and one will be higher performance which makes a lot of sense to me. They've also mentioned the Safire 3 and shown that it will incorporate the "new hotness" in skydiving wing design (Schuemann etc.). Let's hope that PD will be competing against those wings with new designs as well.

Of course, I'm happy to be corrected on these points and do make it a priority to actually TRY different wings to see how they fly. Chris, I'd suggest getting yourself to an event where PD has demo wings and talking to them about it.

Also, this:

SickMonkey

Vote DQ, Kerry King 2016

[Zlew 0]

Quote

The Katana2 (or whatever they're going to call it) has been teased by PD (we need more INFOS!)

I was at a boogie recently and our contact (for team/ sponsor stufff) was there from PD. I tried to see what info they would share about the new wing - when it is out, where it will be positioned etc.... and I got nowhere.

My guess is KA2 ish...but the $$$$ would be something in the SA2 range. They sell so many of those, and can be flown by students to extremely experienced jumpers...the market is huge.