dorbie 0 #1 May 26, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWl1pxVVBU Same video different site: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a6_1306357152 And some say swooping the LZ is a bad idea.... This is a ground launched paraglider with a high wingloading (for PG), but worth a look for you guys. Probably doesn't belong in incidents because it's a different sport but I hate to see this lesson go to waste. It's an interesting video because it shows some of the worst decision making imaginable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #2 May 26, 2011 is toggle swooping common for paragliders? -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #3 May 26, 2011 Hard to tell if he stradled that fence or got to the side of it. OUCH......and the sound of his helmet bouncing on the ground.....did it fall off or was his limp head still in it ?Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LetsGoOutside 0 #4 May 26, 2011 Quoteis toggle swooping common for paragliders?It's the only option. Well, that and harness input. While this might look pretty reckless for a skydiver, it's really not that crazy for a speed/acro wing. Definitely should have given himself a bit more room, though. That and there were obviously plenty of other places to swoop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #5 May 26, 2011 QuoteQuoteis toggle swooping common for paragliders?It's the only option. Well, that and harness input. While this might look pretty reckless for a skydiver, it's really not that crazy for a speed/acro wing. Definitely should have given himself a bit more room, though. That and there were obviously plenty of other places to swoop. Context is everything, if it was an open field you could argue that it wasn't so reckless (although the results speak for themselves). His life is his to risk but the public did not sign up for his stunt. If he'd shown he didn't have the chops for his stunt and boxed himself in with rocks and trees instead of residential buildings I'd view his actions more favorably. If you take the margin of error afforded by your wing and piss it away through your decisions then it's no longer margin for error. It's gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #6 May 26, 2011 Two more feet and this would have been a cool video. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LetsGoOutside 0 #7 May 26, 2011 QuoteHis life is his to risk but the public did not sign up for his stunt. If he'd shown he didn't have the chops for his stunt and boxed himself in with rocks and trees instead of residential buildings I'd view his actions more favorably.True. I personally like to swoop my speedwing to landing, but the obstacles are usually trees, if anything at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 May 26, 2011 QuoteTwo more feet and this would have been a cool video. A *LOT* of swooping videos (especially sunset beer line swoop videos) could be categorized with that statement!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #9 May 27, 2011 Quotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWl1pxVVBU So that video is reckless... and this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdOvODQ7JZs is cool. Got it. The result of the intended swoop should not dictate the judgement, in paragliding and/or skydiving. I find it funny that we condone or tolerate bad judgment with good results and then act surprised when something goes wrong. For the record, I think the pool swoop is fucking awesome...and I didn't read through the thread to see what my initial reaction was. The botched paragliding swoop...well, its nobody's fault but his. This is not directed at you Dorbie...its just interesting to see the difference in attitude based on the result.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frost 1 #10 May 27, 2011 "There is a thin line between a hot dog and a wiener." Pull it off - you're a hero. Beef it in - you're a zero. Beef it in real good - back to hero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #11 May 27, 2011 The trouble is that a lot of speedwing pilots don't have the experience to make good decisions on swooping. That's what you're seeing in this video. Swooping buildings, with spectators, past parked vehicles with no outs once he'd started his turn. Bad decision after bad decision. I've no idea of the experience of the pilot, but I'd expect someone who had the skill and knowledge to attempt this sort of stunt, not to put themself in such a bad position in the first place. There's no regulation on buying a wing, little on where to fly it, and generally only paraglider knowledge on how to fly them. I've been saying for years that speedflying is a seperate discipline to paragliding and swooping and needs to take lessons from both. I've heard horror stories of arrogant skydivers insisting that since they have x-thousand swoops that they don't need any instruction on launching or flying a new wing type. Idiots. Similarly those from a paragliding background don't see any problems with whipping toggle hooks for swooping - stuff we left behind 10 years ago for good reason. I'm certain we'll see more and more of these accidents as more people take up the sport. Speedflying is the new cool thing to do, and when it's done well, it looks easy. The trouble is, everyone thinks they can do it straight off the bat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #12 May 27, 2011 QuoteI'd expect someone who had the skill and knowledge to attempt this sort of stunt, not to put themself in such a bad position in the first place. It isn't that someone with a high level of skill wouldn't put themselves in that situation, but that someone with enough experience to do such a high level of a swoop could do it safely. Unfortunately, usually when someone finds out that they don't have the skill to do that sort of swoop is when they impact the earth, object or person. Competitive swooping does help prepare people for those sorts of swoops, since it is a "you must turn and make these gates regardless of wind direction/speed/variance" sort of situation. It does that with a higher level of stress due to the competitive environment. That is a similar stress as to when your friends are all standing out in an environment like that street with their cameras ready. Was it a bad choice? It apparently was for that person. Would it be a bad choice for another canopy pilot? Not necessarily.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #13 May 27, 2011 Quote *** Was it a bad choice? It apparently was for that person. Would it be a bad choice for another canopy pilot? Not necessarily. You're right - That's exactly my point and I worded myself poorly. All the lessons you indicated do transfer into the speedflying environment. Lots of speedflyers don't know when they're in over their heads because they just don't have that experience. I believe the addage is: 'You don't know, what you don't know'... Have a look at this - another recent near-fatality on a speedwing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOV-Fn4Iu6A Again - it's a lack of skill and too much arrogance that's caused this. Someone who can't control the speed of their wing on a launch has no business cliff-launching. I'm prepared to bet they don't see it that way though. Someone with the appropriate skillset would make that launch look easy, and then you get the 'hey that lookks easy! I'll give it a go!' crowd following up, then going in. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #14 May 27, 2011 Wow, sort of makes me want to order a PD Pulse and just go for it... (kidding) QuoteSomeone with the appropriate skillset would make that launch look easy, and then you get the 'hey that lookks easy! I'll give it a go!' crowd following up, then going in. And there it is. That is one of the root problems with canopy piloting in skydiving. We know that it takes thousands of jumps, learning and experience to pull off even a decent beer line swoop. Making a good swoop look smooth and easy is an earmark of an experienced canopy pilot. Making it look easy and good makes others think that it is easy to be good. Like posters on DZ.com we've seen come and go, sometimes with injury, sometimes in death, sometimes with just a scare. Too much, too fast, too little and too soon! All the coaching in the world can't save a jumper with 200 jumps and a Katana loaded at 1.5 who turned 100ft too low...or didn't have the experience to avoid a wind gradient and rolled out into the ground.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LetsGoOutside 0 #15 May 27, 2011 QuoteHave a look at this - another recent near-fatality on a speedwing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOV-Fn4Iu6AHa! Was going to point this out. This person's "launch technique" (standing more or less straight up in half brakes) doesn't apply to foot launching either a paraglider or a parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #16 May 27, 2011 From the sound of the video, there isn't much wind. if you look at the canopy right as the video begins, it looks like the guy was runnuing just to get it up overhead, and it surged ahead of him and folded under. In my limited experience with foot launching, I was always told to get the canopy up and stable overhead before beginnig your run to launch. I was always launching with wind, of course, using it to help me take off. It appears this guy had no wind, and figured that jumping off the cliff would provide him with all the wind he needed. Without the wind available to kite the canopy, and get it stable and controlled, he was asking for trouble running off the edge with the canopy in that state. The first time I saw that video, my thoughts and the camera guys words were exactly the same at exactly the same time, 'Oh fuck'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LetsGoOutside 0 #17 May 27, 2011 Launching in no wind is not an issue with this type of wing (the Bullet by Ozone gets over your head very easily). But you have to maintain leverage by leaning forward (waaay forward) and let the wing be in full flight, then really charge it. This person is standing more or less straight up and briskly walking in half brakes. This page clearly shows the body position for this type of launch: http://www.paragliding-tales-and-reviews.com/torpedo-launch.html Compare this to what's in the video and it's pretty obvious why the wing got ahead of him. There's also this tip from the site, which is very true: QuoteAfter a forward inflation or turn transition in a running reverse launch prior to dropping into the torpedo, check the wing. Basically, you want to face the wing while you get it over your head, check it (keep it from overflying you), then turn and run in torpedo mode until you are in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites adamT 0 #18 May 27, 2011 Besides some of other things pointed out in that video the wind was one of the main culprits. You can hear that there is some wind in the video. The wind begins to travel vertical when it meets a face like that, when it reaches the top of the cliff it comes rolling over, pushed buy the wind not travelling up the face. That mechanical turbulence combined with him being upreared to deal with it is what caused the wing to fold under into a frontal collapse and come crashing down on him. Lucky for him it recovered with almost no heading change. Good show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #19 May 27, 2011 Yeah, I don't know the fine details of speed flying, but in paragliding, launches from a sharp edged cliff are dangerous -- have to watch for that rotor/turbulence at the edge. I'd want to make sure the canopy is stable and kited near the edge before accelerating off it. There just isn't much time for decision making if making a running launch off a sharp edged launch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites adamT 0 #20 May 28, 2011 Yeah same with speed wings, not to be taken lightly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #21 May 30, 2011 I have launched that site a couple dozen times, in several different wind conditions, on anything from a 9m(90 square foot) speed glider to a large XC paraglider. One of the easier cliff launches, but still it's a cliff launch. Not for anyone but VERY experienced PARAGLIDER/SPEED WING pilots. NOT FOR SKYDIVERS. I have taught more than a few people to speed fly or paraglide. Skydivers have notorious bad habits and knowledge in foot launched canopy flight. The muppets* need to understand a few things about paragliding (NOT skydiving) before trying to fly a parachute or a glider off a hill. That launch had a few aspects that are not noticeable in the video. (I was not there, but i know the pilot and had a good long talk with him about it). The glider is an older modified speed glider, the design is considerably less forgiving than the current speed gliders from Ozone. *muppet: noun, an ignorant and inexperienced person who believes they have the skill to do what they have watched others do on video or in person. We have all been a muppet at some time in our lives. just be careful, get training, and NO HALF ASSED LAUNCHES -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #22 May 30, 2011 Quoteis toggle swooping common for paragliders? Most control in speed gliders is through toggle and weight shift, with riser trimmers on some. Some speed gliders were modeled to have skydive swooping canopy like performance, and can use independent riser input. In most paragliders the only control used is brakes and weight shift. Some maneuvers involve riser inputs, but on a comparatively complex riser system. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
frost 1 #10 May 27, 2011 "There is a thin line between a hot dog and a wiener." Pull it off - you're a hero. Beef it in - you're a zero. Beef it in real good - back to hero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #11 May 27, 2011 The trouble is that a lot of speedwing pilots don't have the experience to make good decisions on swooping. That's what you're seeing in this video. Swooping buildings, with spectators, past parked vehicles with no outs once he'd started his turn. Bad decision after bad decision. I've no idea of the experience of the pilot, but I'd expect someone who had the skill and knowledge to attempt this sort of stunt, not to put themself in such a bad position in the first place. There's no regulation on buying a wing, little on where to fly it, and generally only paraglider knowledge on how to fly them. I've been saying for years that speedflying is a seperate discipline to paragliding and swooping and needs to take lessons from both. I've heard horror stories of arrogant skydivers insisting that since they have x-thousand swoops that they don't need any instruction on launching or flying a new wing type. Idiots. Similarly those from a paragliding background don't see any problems with whipping toggle hooks for swooping - stuff we left behind 10 years ago for good reason. I'm certain we'll see more and more of these accidents as more people take up the sport. Speedflying is the new cool thing to do, and when it's done well, it looks easy. The trouble is, everyone thinks they can do it straight off the bat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 May 27, 2011 QuoteI'd expect someone who had the skill and knowledge to attempt this sort of stunt, not to put themself in such a bad position in the first place. It isn't that someone with a high level of skill wouldn't put themselves in that situation, but that someone with enough experience to do such a high level of a swoop could do it safely. Unfortunately, usually when someone finds out that they don't have the skill to do that sort of swoop is when they impact the earth, object or person. Competitive swooping does help prepare people for those sorts of swoops, since it is a "you must turn and make these gates regardless of wind direction/speed/variance" sort of situation. It does that with a higher level of stress due to the competitive environment. That is a similar stress as to when your friends are all standing out in an environment like that street with their cameras ready. Was it a bad choice? It apparently was for that person. Would it be a bad choice for another canopy pilot? Not necessarily.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #13 May 27, 2011 Quote *** Was it a bad choice? It apparently was for that person. Would it be a bad choice for another canopy pilot? Not necessarily. You're right - That's exactly my point and I worded myself poorly. All the lessons you indicated do transfer into the speedflying environment. Lots of speedflyers don't know when they're in over their heads because they just don't have that experience. I believe the addage is: 'You don't know, what you don't know'... Have a look at this - another recent near-fatality on a speedwing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOV-Fn4Iu6A Again - it's a lack of skill and too much arrogance that's caused this. Someone who can't control the speed of their wing on a launch has no business cliff-launching. I'm prepared to bet they don't see it that way though. Someone with the appropriate skillset would make that launch look easy, and then you get the 'hey that lookks easy! I'll give it a go!' crowd following up, then going in. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 May 27, 2011 Wow, sort of makes me want to order a PD Pulse and just go for it... (kidding) QuoteSomeone with the appropriate skillset would make that launch look easy, and then you get the 'hey that lookks easy! I'll give it a go!' crowd following up, then going in. And there it is. That is one of the root problems with canopy piloting in skydiving. We know that it takes thousands of jumps, learning and experience to pull off even a decent beer line swoop. Making a good swoop look smooth and easy is an earmark of an experienced canopy pilot. Making it look easy and good makes others think that it is easy to be good. Like posters on DZ.com we've seen come and go, sometimes with injury, sometimes in death, sometimes with just a scare. Too much, too fast, too little and too soon! All the coaching in the world can't save a jumper with 200 jumps and a Katana loaded at 1.5 who turned 100ft too low...or didn't have the experience to avoid a wind gradient and rolled out into the ground.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LetsGoOutside 0 #15 May 27, 2011 QuoteHave a look at this - another recent near-fatality on a speedwing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOV-Fn4Iu6AHa! Was going to point this out. This person's "launch technique" (standing more or less straight up in half brakes) doesn't apply to foot launching either a paraglider or a parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #16 May 27, 2011 From the sound of the video, there isn't much wind. if you look at the canopy right as the video begins, it looks like the guy was runnuing just to get it up overhead, and it surged ahead of him and folded under. In my limited experience with foot launching, I was always told to get the canopy up and stable overhead before beginnig your run to launch. I was always launching with wind, of course, using it to help me take off. It appears this guy had no wind, and figured that jumping off the cliff would provide him with all the wind he needed. Without the wind available to kite the canopy, and get it stable and controlled, he was asking for trouble running off the edge with the canopy in that state. The first time I saw that video, my thoughts and the camera guys words were exactly the same at exactly the same time, 'Oh fuck'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LetsGoOutside 0 #17 May 27, 2011 Launching in no wind is not an issue with this type of wing (the Bullet by Ozone gets over your head very easily). But you have to maintain leverage by leaning forward (waaay forward) and let the wing be in full flight, then really charge it. This person is standing more or less straight up and briskly walking in half brakes. This page clearly shows the body position for this type of launch: http://www.paragliding-tales-and-reviews.com/torpedo-launch.html Compare this to what's in the video and it's pretty obvious why the wing got ahead of him. There's also this tip from the site, which is very true: QuoteAfter a forward inflation or turn transition in a running reverse launch prior to dropping into the torpedo, check the wing. Basically, you want to face the wing while you get it over your head, check it (keep it from overflying you), then turn and run in torpedo mode until you are in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamT 0 #18 May 27, 2011 Besides some of other things pointed out in that video the wind was one of the main culprits. You can hear that there is some wind in the video. The wind begins to travel vertical when it meets a face like that, when it reaches the top of the cliff it comes rolling over, pushed buy the wind not travelling up the face. That mechanical turbulence combined with him being upreared to deal with it is what caused the wing to fold under into a frontal collapse and come crashing down on him. Lucky for him it recovered with almost no heading change. Good show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #19 May 27, 2011 Yeah, I don't know the fine details of speed flying, but in paragliding, launches from a sharp edged cliff are dangerous -- have to watch for that rotor/turbulence at the edge. I'd want to make sure the canopy is stable and kited near the edge before accelerating off it. There just isn't much time for decision making if making a running launch off a sharp edged launch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamT 0 #20 May 28, 2011 Yeah same with speed wings, not to be taken lightly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #21 May 30, 2011 I have launched that site a couple dozen times, in several different wind conditions, on anything from a 9m(90 square foot) speed glider to a large XC paraglider. One of the easier cliff launches, but still it's a cliff launch. Not for anyone but VERY experienced PARAGLIDER/SPEED WING pilots. NOT FOR SKYDIVERS. I have taught more than a few people to speed fly or paraglide. Skydivers have notorious bad habits and knowledge in foot launched canopy flight. The muppets* need to understand a few things about paragliding (NOT skydiving) before trying to fly a parachute or a glider off a hill. That launch had a few aspects that are not noticeable in the video. (I was not there, but i know the pilot and had a good long talk with him about it). The glider is an older modified speed glider, the design is considerably less forgiving than the current speed gliders from Ozone. *muppet: noun, an ignorant and inexperienced person who believes they have the skill to do what they have watched others do on video or in person. We have all been a muppet at some time in our lives. just be careful, get training, and NO HALF ASSED LAUNCHES -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #22 May 30, 2011 Quoteis toggle swooping common for paragliders? Most control in speed gliders is through toggle and weight shift, with riser trimmers on some. Some speed gliders were modeled to have skydive swooping canopy like performance, and can use independent riser input. In most paragliders the only control used is brakes and weight shift. Some maneuvers involve riser inputs, but on a comparatively complex riser system. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
