Is it time to seperate the discipline of swooping?

[mirage62 0]

Great thanks for your input, so far your view seems to be standing alone.

But again, really thanks.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Great thanks for your input, so far your view seems to be standing alone.

But again, really thanks.

Try to think about it. How come that a medium to big load of skydivers are not killing each other with canopy collisions in other countries than USA?

[Floflo 0]

????

Of course it happens elsewhere. We have quite strict rules in France regarding canopy size - and that helps a lot! - and make less jumps than in the US, and still had one again last year (One dead, one injured).

[billvon 3,085]

>How come that a medium to big load of skydivers are not killing each
>other with canopy collisions in other countries than USA?

Because

1) Many countries have more stringent canopy regulations than the US
2) Many countries do a much better job separating swoopers and pattern flyers
3) There are a LOT more jumps made in the US than in any other country.

[billvon 3,085]

>If the people at my DZ who want to swoop only did hop and pops I would
> be up shit creek with a plane that sits on the ground.

Hop and pops are loads just like high altitude loads are. Indeed, you can get far more people in the air with a small airplane if some loads are H+P's.

>At the end of the day, seperating them is gonna piss someone off, how
>exactly do we decide which group gets fucked.

How about you "fuck" neither group? If a whole load of swoopers wants to do a H+P, great. If a whole load wants to go high, great. If half a load wants to swoop and the other half wants to go high, then the swoopers get out low, and the rest of the load gets to altitude even faster. Everyone wins.

[DocPop 1]

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If half a load wants to swoop and the other half wants to go high, then the swoopers get out low, and the rest of the load gets to altitude even faster. Everyone wins.

That's not necessarily true.

With the King Air at my home DZ making a low pass costs time and money and slows the operation down.

Admittedly, it is an exceptionally fast aircraft.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 3,085]

>With the King Air at my home DZ making a low pass costs time and
>money and slows the operation down.

When we had a King Air, the time it took to level off and trim for exit (~15 seconds) to let 5 H+Pers out at 3000 was more than made up for by a faster climb to altitude. That's 800 fewer pounds you have to lug to 12,500, and results in faster turn times and more loads per day.

If you're letting only one H+Per out, then it might slow you down overall, though.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>How come that a medium to big load of skydivers are not killing each
>other with canopy collisions in other countries than USA?

Because

1) Many countries have more stringent canopy regulations than the US
2) Many countries do a much better job separating swoopers and pattern flyers
3) There are a LOT more jumps made in the US than in any other country.

Can be some issues with commercial skydiving?

bigger jumpships

longer jump runs

less landing area/jumpers

Soft things? Club system: smaller community

"just" an Otter, Caravan, Grand Caravan load in the air

we do know each other even if we don't even jump with each other, we do know who swoops usually

less strangers/visitors are jumping with us

there is a ground person all the time - dangerous behaviour leads to consequences.

moving other places if banned is not an option

more organized - landing direction for HP area is agreed on the ground

[curmudgeon 0]

I'm not sure what the answer is....but swoopers are certainly their own worse enemy....until last week I would have argued that the low performance, standard pattern people were the problem as almost every load I watch them intrude into the HP landing area either by landing in it, or more typically, by flying through it on base or final, but then I got to go see a 'pro' swoop competition....it was pretty impressive until it was over...and then I got to see a group of 'pro' swoopers preceed to break every rule the DZ had about HP landings....including swooping perpendicular to the lane...which was also perpendicular to everybody else on final....one consistently went big through the center of the DZ...and nobody said a damn word to them....I don't know, maybe they were a 'name' but shouldn't one of the other 'pros' set them straight? Maybe swoopers are the problem and unless they mature and become disciplined perhaps curtailing their activities is the appropriate response.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Just my two unsolicited two cents.

If an LZ is large enough to seperate a strictly HP landing area and a strictly normal pattern area then this should be mandated.

If an LZ is too small to do this and have to share a LZ then swoopers must get out low. If this means your DZ becomes anti-swooper bc they don't like to do two seperate passes than that is that DZ's loss. Adapt and overcome or lose some of those spectators that come to watch the swoop show.

Basically in some way they must be seperated either by geographical space or time. At some DZ's this might mean swoopers have to give up those group freefalls if they want to swoop, but there will be plenty of DZ's that have the space for alternate LZ's.

I do not know the specifics of the recent fatalities but I believe it has shown that experience does not make us immune. If I am mistaken please correct me. It is obvious we need to take action, and I support it.

My DZ is limited on space. If you are going to do more than a 90 you ARE doing a hop and pop, period. I am fine with it. No complaints. Safety first, swoop second.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[FB1609 0]

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.it was pretty impressive until it was over...and then I got to see a group of 'pro' swoopers preceed to break every rule the DZ had about HP landings....including swooping perpendicular to the lane...which was also perpendicular to everybody else on final....one consistently went big through the center of the DZ.

This doesn't surprise me. After people have been cheering them and in awe of their skills, they're in the zone...they can do what ever they want, they are skygods! Praise them.