lilchief 1 #1 February 22, 2011 4 months lay off due to exams at school, plane in for maintenance and yadayadayada... I wanted to take some nice pictures of a friend of mine for his birthday and while under canopy I ended up in his burble. He flew a spectre 150 @ 1.3-ish and I'm under a Velo 103 @ 2.1 and it happened @ 2000f-ish. I completely forgot that I was on full breaks and didn't expect other then some shaking at the most. You many say I was....surprised! I grounded my self the rest of the day. =/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oqTIZ6W2uU&feature=email&email=comment_received"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci www.lilchief.no Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #2 February 22, 2011 wow, even from that distance "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d100965 0 #3 February 22, 2011 Just playing devils advocate here..... But are you sure you didn't just stall the left side of your canopy through too much toggle input? Does the video start with you on full brakes? Or do you transition from full flight into full brakes? It looks like you were on full brakes but still sidesliding left so as to arrive behind your friend. Therefore, there would have been slightly more input on the left toggle, perhaps past the stall point. Which, whilst your airspeed was initially high, is OK, (either because you transitioned from full speed quite quickly into full brakes). But then as the airspeed bleeds off very quickly, you may have stalled the left side of your canopy yourself. Not saying you didn't experience any burble from the canopy in front of you, but perhaps the maneuver you carried out previous also contributed just as much to the situation as the burble did. Just something to think about as even the poster above remarks that was still some distance behind. Maybe Aggie or someone just as experienced could comment further. In fairness though I was not there and I've surmised/deduced a bit too much from your video me thinks. Blue Skies (and Velo flight above 2.1 rocks!!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilchief 1 #4 February 22, 2011 Quote Just playing devils advocate here..... I've actually never understood that term, not in english or norwegian Quote But are you sure you didn't just stall the left side of your canopy through too much toggle input? >Yes. I was on "full brakes"(80%-ish) with a little more on the left side, but I didn't feel that I was on the point of stalling. If it had been a 1.1 WL canopy, then I'd been on the absolute edge and would have had to let me sink under him to avoid stalling. It also came very unexpected and abrupt like when you stall your canopy on rears. Quote Does the video start with you on full brakes? > No, but some 80% ish I'd reckon. I wrote on the video that I'm on full brakes, but when I'm thinking of it, more or less 80% would be a more accurate assumption. I could let the breaks up slightly when I saw that he came lower then be after the last 360. Quote Or do you transition from full flight into full brakes? > no, I was hanging on at first to allow him to get down to me. Then I had to slide to the side by raising the right toggle slightly. Quote It looks like you were on full brakes but still sidesliding left so as to arrive behind your friend. Therefore, there would have been slightly more input on the left toggle, perhaps past the stall point. Which, whilst your airspeed was initially high, is OK, (either because you transitioned from full speed quite quickly into full brakes). > yes, but then it would have stalled on me earlier and not behind him? When the canopy stalled on me, I had basically positioned myself directly behind him and a little higher. Quote But then as the airspeed bleeds off very quickly, you may have stalled the left side of your canopy yourself. > that's indeed true if I'd come from full flight. You may experience a stall at higher speeds if you transition from full speed to a high angle of attack(AOA) in a short period of time. The higher the AOA the higher the stall speed. Quote Not saying you didn't experience any burble from the canopy in front of you, but perhaps the maneuver you carried out previous also contributed just as much to the situation as the burble did. > That may be true. But I believe that I hit my friend's burble. Quote Just something to think about as even the poster above remarks that was still some distance behind. > jupp. But burbles may stay far behind an object. The turbulence behind a hangar may be twice as high and ten times as long as the hangar it self I'm told. But that depends on the wind speed and size of the hangar. Quote Maybe Aggie or someone just as experienced could comment further. > jupp. that would have been awesome. It's always good to have someone more experienced comment on situations :) Quote In fairness though I was not there and I've surmised/deduced a bit too much from your video me thinks. > yes, but you had some good questions, not only for me to reflect on the incident, but also for others to learn :) I' also very glad you didn't start flaming me as is unfortunately very often here Quote Blue Skies (and Velo flight above 2.1 rocks!!) oh yeah! "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci www.lilchief.no Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d100965 0 #5 February 22, 2011 [email]This is a no flaming zone!!! Learning only. Do you add any extra length to your brake lines? I am on a Velo 90 at 2.25 and I find that stock Velos require at least another 2". I use slightly longer risers, 23" inch and then you definitely will need more brake length. My last line set after discussion with PD was +3" on the brake lines. PD told me that Comp Velos will come with longer brakelines than standard Velos anyway. PD also remarked that most of their PD team have +6" on their Comp Velos. I believe he meant that was +6" in relation to a stock Velo. Sticking with stock Velos though, reason I mention it is that having that bit extra just helps keep the tail that bit looser during swoops and seems to help squeeze out all that a Velo has to offer when in full brakes. I find it just takes that twitchy edge away as well when you are in full brakes. Helps with any burbles as you don't have to be so maxed out when flying slow. And despite the added brake length I can still fully stall my wing. If you haven't made any adjustments to brake length/riser length then it's definitely worth experimenting with. Velos have so much to offer! I picked most of this up during swoop comps and canopy flocking with other Velos. (Although I only swoop for fun at the mo!) Just exchanging stories here, but the burble I remember the most was when I followed in another Swooper through the gates. I went in a little too soon after them although IMO should have been well OK. But as I planed out to go through the gates the canopy hit the burble and one side stalled very slightly, it was enough to sideslide my canopy off the line and I had to abort the gates. Was very sudden and scary but no mistaking the effect of the burble. And definitely the burble as I was in no input planing out. It was like someone shoved me to one side very quickly! P.s. Stunning scenery, where in Norway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morris 0 #6 February 22, 2011 From all I can see it´s caused by the turbulence, not by a "regular" stall. By the time it happens you are slightly higher, right where the burble is. From your view it doesn´t look like being that much higher at first glance, it looks like you might be below the burble - but you are not - your body (and video) is below the burble, your wing is obviously right in it. Your friends backview is proving that, by the time you come into the picture you are still higher than he is, you are passing by him once you´ve been hit. In addition you are offset to the right by the time the left part of your canopy does get hit = burble! If you watch your friends view it looks like you are coming into the picture more or less by the time you get hit. But watching it frame by frame you´ll see yourself just BEFORE you get hit (for a frame or two) and you are far away form stalling your canopy, you are flying more or less 1/4 brakes, maybe even less (don´t know the length of your brakelines). The way the canopy looks like right after the hit (if you pause the video) is not "stallrelated" as the front of the chute is collapsed while the tail is still rocksolid, something you would not expect to see while being stalled... Personal note: We used to do "airspeed-style-formationlandings" with the german 8way team (and Dan BC-input). We had two lines of chutes flying parallel to each other with a little bit of an vertical and horizontal offset between the two lines. The leading and lower flying lines included the lower laoding chutes. On landing we all turned together and the highloading chutes passed through the gaps of the lower loading chutes during the swoop. Doing this I´ve once got hit by a burble while still flying pretty high, but already as part of the formation. The reopening of the chute was so brutal that a center C-line broke...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #7 February 22, 2011 QuoteFrom all I can see it´s caused by the turbulence, not by a "regular" stall I agree with you there, but the canopy will be far more susceptible to such turbulence at 80% brakes than it would be at full drive.-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #8 February 22, 2011 Turbulence is bad no matter what flight mode. I know at least one VERY experienced video dude who was unable to recover his velo and had to cutaway after catching the tandem burble. It was a lot more violent though. Bigger canopies, bigger burble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilchief 1 #9 February 23, 2011 I don't recall how much, but I extended the breaklines, but they're not super long that some has. I got enought to go full frontriser withouth activating the tail. I also have 23" risers. The scenery is absolutely wonderful! There are a couple of DZ in Norway that are just as good or better. This one is in Oppdal, in the middle of Norway. but Bjorli DZ has the troll wall close to it, Voss has the best scenery IMO and you also have Bodoe(spelled Bodø in Norwegian) and Tromsø up North. At voss we often jump in Gudvangen, a 2000f wide valley with 5000f mountains to fly close to. Epic! "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci www.lilchief.no Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
