Harness inputs under front risers.

[SRI85 0]

I cant seem to get any harness input when i pull down on my risers (after i flare it out) It basically feels like i am lifting myself up by the front risers. theres no tension in my legstraps once i do this.

canopy is safire 2 149 1:1.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

At first i was just pulling one front riser down to get it to turn and dive, i was getting better results doing this, but i was informed thats not the proper way to do it.

[DocPop 1]

Just my thoughts as a newbie, but it may be that you actually ARE lifting yourself up out of the legstraps on the fronts.

Having such a low WL will mean that:

a - front riser pressure will be heavier
b - the canopy will be less responsive to harness input

...than the same canopy at at a higher WL.

It may just be that you will not get very satisfactory results with diving harness turns at that WL.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[michalm21 2]

The canopy is not wingloaded enough for you to see any input from the harness. It also means very heavy front riser pressure.
I was finally able to have some harness input on my SA2 150 at 1.3, and with SA2 135 at 1.4 I can fly my pattern using harness input but at 1 to 1 you won't get anywhere.

I'd also recommend working with a competent canopy pilot before attempting any advanced maneuvers close to the ground to better understand the aerodynamics and flight characteristics of your canopy/

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

canopy is safire 2 149 1:1.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

You may forget about harness input under WL 1.3.
Your weight shift does not make too much effect at all.

[inertial 0]

> The canopy is not wingloaded enough for you to see any input from the harness.

IMHO this statement is totally wrong. I'm doing canopy courses and until now everyone on the course was able to do harness turns. Even freshly licensed girls weighing 50kg and flying a PD210. Of course, those turns are much slower than turns with highly loaded canopies...
I guess it's a question of technique. A good tip is to move the legstrap down (to the more "beefy" part of the leg) when you are on the canopy and have brakes set (watch traffic the whole time of course...). Then you get more control over the harness.

[danielcroft 2]

I tend(ed) to lift myself out of my harness when trying to dive with heavy riser pressure. Whether it works or not at any particular loading is kind of moot if you're not able to put any weight into your harness.

[matt002 0]

I had the exact same issue, yes you are probably taking the loading off your legstraps, rendering harness input ineffective until you re engage the harness.

I have 3 'gears' in my rotation a 450 right turn.
Strong double front input.
During this stage the loading is pretty much entirely on my front risers, rear risers are actually quite slack from what I have seen from rear mounted video footage during my turn. Harness input is not effective in this mode. This covers 180ish degrees of the turn, as the airspeed builds the front risers begin to pull back and return loading to the harness, leading to gear 2 where I continue the rotation using mostly harness input and whats left of the front riser input (the front risers are almost rock solid at this point) leading to gear 3 which is quite aggressive whole body input to finish the last 100 -120 degree of the turn with a strong pitch and my body level with or above the canopy before the rec arc.

So basically if I do a rotation of less than 180, the harness will be in effective for this turn as I can keep the risers in for the full 180 degrees which is probably what you are finding?

[polarbear 1]

That's pretty normal. When you get into front risers, you take load off of the other controls. The front risers become dominant and the harness is not as effective. If you hang on the risers long enough for the pressure to build up and the risers pull out of your hands, the harness will become effective again.

It is true that a lightly tapered 149 won't be especially snappy in the harness no matter what, but getting into front risers tends to reduce harness effectiveness on any wing.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[krisco 0]

Looks like you're just getting into the fine art of making your canopy eat altitude!

At 1:1 you're going to have a tough time yanking down the front risers, and if you're using double fronts at that wing loading, you'll lose any possibility of any harness input while hanging from the fronts

Stick to single fronts for now! you will lose altitude just fine!

Whatever you do!!! Get some Help/Mentoring from an accomplished Swooper at your DZ! He/She will be able to better help with your goals based on your performance.

Happy Turf Surfing

Skydivers are nothing but a bunch of Narcissistic A$$holes!!
Front risers were made for pulling! Pal
MuFF#5640
D.S. # 2012

[DocPop 1]

Quote

Strong double front input.
During this stage the loading is pretty much entirely on my front risers, rear risers are actually quite slack from what I have seen from rear mounted video footage during my turn.

Can this really be true? Slack in the rears sounds like the canopy has ceased flying and is just falling. Please post video of this.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

Can this really be true? Slack in the rears sounds like the canopy has ceased flying and is just falling. Please post video of this.

Most load (more than half) is on the forward 30% of a standard airfoil. in a "front riser" dive it is common for minimal load be on the rear risers. They appear to be "slack" because they are experiencing a high amount of droop due to the lack of tension. they are not completely slack, just lightly loaded and the drag on the line curves them visibly aft.

-SPACE-

[craigbey 0]

Quote

aggressive whole body input

I really like your description of this process for larger turns, but I'm not sure what is meant by the body input in gear 3.

You're already using harness input into the direction of the turn through gear 2. How would you describe the body input? Is this just a combination of leaning harder with the upper body in a coordinated effort with the riser and harness input?

[matt002 0]

With all imputs maxed out I try to pull my body towards the front right riser and jump over it kind of twisting and tightening onto the final heading quite hard to explain but gives a much stronger pitch and longer rec arc as opposed to just maintaining the same turn rate with the harness input.

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

With all imputs maxed out I try to pull my body towards the front right riser and jump over it kind of twisting and tightening onto the final heading quite hard to explain but gives a much stronger pitch and longer rec arc as opposed to just maintaining the same turn rate with the harness input.

I was told to imagine throwing the opposite hip over aggressively, to arrest the turn/carve and transition to the pendulum portion and rollout. Please correct me if I am wrong/phrased incorrectly.

[matt002 0]

That tends to work on smaller turns like 270s, where I can go from front risers for most of the turn and then harness to finish. In a 450 I need to keep the canopy turning for longer so use harness input to continue the rotation, my hips will already be leading the turn so I can't really throw my hips over.
Point being that harness input is only really needed if you can't continue the turn on the risers, I have a spectre 120 for wingsuiting and do my full 450 on front risers.

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

That tends to work on smaller turns like 270s, where I can go from front risers for most of the turn and then harness to finish. In a 450 I need to keep the canopy turning for longer so use harness input to continue the rotation, my hips will already be leading the turn so I can't really throw my hips over.
Point being that harness input is only really needed if you can't continue the turn on the risers, I have a spectre 120 for wingsuiting and do my full 450 on front risers.

Cool. I have not moved on to 450s yet. Maybe next season.

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

That tends to work on smaller turns like 270s, where I can go from front risers for most of the turn and then harness to finish. In a 450 I need to keep the canopy turning for longer so use harness input to continue the rotation, my hips will already be leading the turn so I can't really throw my hips over.
Point being that harness input is only really needed if you can't continue the turn on the risers, I have a spectre 120 for wingsuiting and do my full 450 on front risers.

Cool. I have not moved on to 450s yet. Maybe next season.

maybe me too; i think i'll stick to 270''s for this season..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[SRI85 0]

well this seems to be the solution http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=104524;d=1

if anyone knows of a decent 120 sabre 2, safire 2, or pilot, let me know!

[tetra316 0]

Quote

well this seems to be the solution http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=104524;d=1

if anyone knows of a decent 120 sabre 2, safire 2, or pilot, let me know!

You really should not skip a size downloading, especially with your low jump numbers. And yes you can do harness turns loaded 1:1. Heck you can even fly your entire pattern at that loading never touching your toggles. I challenge you to do that. Sure it the turns are much slow but that just means planning your patter better. Which translates into more familiarity with planning and executing a pattern which will make you that much better when you actually downsize.

[matt002 0]

Quote

well this seems to be the solution http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=104524;d=1

if anyone knows of a decent 120 sabre 2, safire 2, or pilot, let me know!

Ask a question where the answer is to improve technique but end up on a double downsize. Nice!

[superstu 0]

As stated before, downsizing is NOT the way to go, improving your technique is.

Just like everything else out there, to be good at something (or in the case of swooping it's to survive) you need to start with the basics and build a solid foundation. If you skip steps you're done.

Describing how to improve and effectively utilize harness input in general is hard, but to describe how to transition when doing front riser dives is even harder and I think a lot of critical info could get lost while trying to describe it here on the forums. That's where a good coach comes into play.

The best advice i can give people wanting to improve or explore harness inputs but don't have a canopy coach at their dropzone is to do full altitude hop n pops and try different ways to move the canopy with harness inputs. Move the leg straps around and see how it effects your harness inputs. Try putting your hands on your fronts/rears/toggles/ and completely off everything and seeing how the canopy reacts utilizing the harness. Do these things up high and soon you'll start seeing results and have another tool in your tool box to use.
If you have a canopy coach available seek him/her out and they should be able to put you through some drills and even be able to do some air-to-air stuff with you to really get you going. And if you're in Colorado look me up and i'll fly with you and give you some drills.

Also, if you want these two video's might help you visualize what matt002 was saying about "reconnecting" with the harness once double fronts has been initiated. note: not the best quality video and not the best turns in the worlds but hopefully it will give you some ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erFa7sfimqs and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnskcihz5-Q

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down