blair700 0 #1 January 3, 2003 I recently switched from a semi-elliptical saffire to a PD Vengence 150. I load the canopy at 1.57 lb/ft. When the canopy opens it seems to be flying all over the place and I have to get it flying straight and level before I can begin stowing slider etc. Is this normal and something that I'm just not used to since this is my first 'elliptical' wing? I know I have to pay close attention to body position and harness input, however I didn't think it would be so pronounced at this wing loading. I only have a dozen jumps on this canopy so far but any light y'all could share on vengence openings would be appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaMan 0 #2 January 3, 2003 My Stiletto did the same at even a lighter loading... Try to keep still in the harness and keep your hands on the rear risers for anything beyond slight harness input. Also, I found using a bungie between the leg straps will lessen the harness inputs (intentional or otherwise). Relax-it will come as you get familiar with it.Z-Flock 8 Discotec Rodriguez Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #3 January 3, 2003 Awhile back I went through the same thing. I went from a Safire 169 to a Crossfire 2 130, after opening getting the slider stowed and brakes unstowed was stressful. The damned canopy was filing all over; I talked to a lot of people about it and was told it was hip input. After making a few more jumps I was able to stop adding unwanted hip input and then openings were great. I have jumped a Vengence 120 loaded at 1.93 and found it to be even more hip input sensitive. I realize you are loading a lot less however I would guess it to be the same thing, hip input. ( not to get flamed for my own downsizing, I realize I made a huge downsizing step but it was made with a lot of input from the S & TA along with about 6 other instructors/ great swoopers) Play safe Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #4 January 3, 2003 I demo'd a Vengence at Eloy a year ago at about 1.5 and it was also all over the place on opening, I figured at the time it was just the canopy, but I think it might be me. I'm jumping a crossfire at 1.5 now and it does the same thing. I think they are just much more susceptible to input. My aim for the start of the season is to work on keeping my body level by looking at the horizon as a key and working on controlling (keeping still/minimum input) my shoulder and hip position during opening.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #5 January 3, 2003 I have about 200 jumps on my ole vengeance loaded at about 1.7. Typically a very neat pack job (symetrical flakes and in the bag) will stop some of that hunting and seeking, but the vengeance is pretty well known to fly off in funny direction while opening. I think sometimes one side inflates a little slower than the other cuz of the airlocks and makes it behave that way. I don't find it sensitive in the harness at all compared to an FX or VX, however poor body posiition will probably cause crazy (exagerration) openings on it also. I think it is pretty tame actually but make sure you track a little further on small dives (2-3 way) instead of hanging out cuz it could give you a brisk 180 back to where you came from, just like a more extreme canopy. I don't mind the way the vengeance opens but it probably does open the jerkiest out of all the non cross braced canopies (albeit mine opens soft). good luck...make sure to add about 100' to your turn on to final.Ramon "Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #6 January 3, 2003 Your experience sounds similar to my first jumps on a Samurai. Mostly it has to do w/ harness inputs during the opening sequence. It's a matter of learning how to relax during the opening sequence. Any movement or 'tense' areas in your body will translate into some harness turn during opening. Neat orderly packing helps the cause too. I leave the nose alone and found that helped. The air-locks tend to slow the opening sequence so it doesn't make much sense to hide the nose from catching air. Brian recommends in-board line stows for the Samurai. You might give that a try. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blair700 0 #7 January 4, 2003 In board line stows...please explain this, are you referring to taking a bite of inboard lines up near the canopy or is this something relating to stowing the lines on the bag????? Sorry for my ignorance, all help is appreciated... incidentially, I psycho pack the vengence, so in my opinion, its already messy, so I'll start there, and of course concentrate on relaxing during deployment and staying symmetrical. THanks again! BSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyerno 0 #8 January 4, 2003 Something to consider in the midst of these replies about body-position: Three guys at my dz bought Vengeance canopies. One bought a 150 (iirc), another a 135, and the last a 120. The guy with the 135 is still jumping his and is very happy with it. He admits that he gets some irratic openings on it, but lives with it and doesn't mind too much. The other two are different stories. The guy with the 150 was the first with the problems. His canopy would start to "snivel" on-heading and then fully inflate into a fast turn, sometimes as much as a 360. All his packing and body-position fixation couldn't cure it, so he sent it in to PD with the pilotchute and all. After several months he got a reply from the dealer that there was something wrong with the canopy and he could choose any stock canopy from PD he'd like. The guy with the 120 also had problems with his, although not as serious. Sometimes it would open ok, but others it would open with a sharp turn. After 40 jumps and three cutaways he sent his canopy in to PD as well. A couple of months later, same reply from the dealer and now he's also got a choice of a stock canopy from PD. That's any canopy from PD, including a Velocity (which is what the first guy chose). I'm not saying there's something wrong with your canopy, only that there are Vengeance canopies out there with problems, and PD knows about it. Be on the look-out, but enjoy your canopy if it's healthy --- Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 January 4, 2003 One of the jumpers at our DZ has one of the first Vengences that PD made, he recieved a phone call this summer stateing that PD wanted to test some new trim out on his canopy and if it solved the problem it would be at no charge, other wise they would give him a new canopy as a replacement. I think PD is aware of the issue, just make sure they know its affecting your canopy too. Pssst, try a Samauri. Designed by Brian Germain, built for the most part by PD.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #10 January 4, 2003 Since Espen opened the bag on 'Problems' w/ the Vengeance... I also know a few Vengeance pilots that had similar problems and ended up getting a New canopy from PD. Usually they bought another Vengeance. No further problems. In Board lines stows are parallel to the center line of the D-bag. Instead of having the stows at the left/ right edges of the bag they are moved to the back of the D-bag past the closing flap. JumpShack has an article on their web site for installing new reserve bag line stows. It's the same for the D-bag. The line of reasoning is that the bag is subject to less spinning during line deployment. You might consider using a standard pro-pack. I'm guessing that the psycho-pack slows the opening enough that it gives you more time to move around in the harness. i.e. "this sure is a nice slow opening," looks up to watch/ reaches for riser/ moves in harness, " why is it going off heading, now?!?" Packing and body position will determine the inflation process. The in-board line stows will reduce the odds of other possible malfunctions. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #11 January 4, 2003 We've had a demo Vengeance here at Spaceland for several months. A bunch of us have jumped it, and we've all loved it. If your canopy is quirky by manufacture, by all means, send it back. Some things I found out that helped get me on-heading openings almost every time: 1. Dump Stable (duh) 2. When I push the nose back in, I make SURE that the center cell is the farthest out, then each cell is a little farther back. Seems to keep the thing inflating center first. 3. Fly the openings with your hips. Stay square, but if it starts to go somewhere, I can usually get it back on heading. By the way, it's a 107 loaded at 1.72. I also went ahead and ordered Vengeances from PD for myself.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyerno 0 #12 January 5, 2003 Quote Since Espen opened the bag on 'Problems' w/ the Vengeance... Sorry, didn't know it was a bag best left closed --- Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #13 January 5, 2003 Finally getting a "cool" canopy?I'm keeping mine forever even though it is uglyramon "Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
