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adamT 0
Your arrogance on this subject goes a long way to show why an unfortunately large portion of the skydiving community views swoopers as reckless, inconsiderate and dangerous. I normally don't post here but i felt the need to speak up because attitudes like the one you are presenting can have a negative impact on all of us who love to swoop. You are flying the wing, it is your responsibility not to run into things regardless of whether or not those things are supposed to be there.
At competitions there will often be people in the pond, camera men, chowed competitors. Guess whose job it is not to hit them, the person flying. And if i did run my dumb ass into someone I would apologize. I will leave this thread now and go practice controlled and accurate high speed canopy flight. So that when i do have to abort or alter my trajectory because of someone or something I will be able to do so safely, just like i always have in the past, and get on with my day. As opposed to lying broken in a hospital bed pointing fingers and placing blame.
At competitions there will often be people in the pond, camera men, chowed competitors. Guess whose job it is not to hit them, the person flying. And if i did run my dumb ass into someone I would apologize. I will leave this thread now and go practice controlled and accurate high speed canopy flight. So that when i do have to abort or alter my trajectory because of someone or something I will be able to do so safely, just like i always have in the past, and get on with my day. As opposed to lying broken in a hospital bed pointing fingers and placing blame.
I agree 110% Adam!!! Well said.
BMFin 0
When you are swooping, YOU DON'T have the right of way! Everything below you has the right of way, that includes stationary objects, such as Lisa. When someone chooses to swoop, they must always be prepared to abort no matter where they are in their swoop.
When a DZ has a swoop lane. It is ment for the use of swoopers. It is not there for people to hang around. This simply means that swoopers have the right of way.
I agree with you that you should abort your swoop if you see someone occupying the swooplane and that it might endanger your and the person standing there.
After that I would definetly go and talk with the person who caused me to abort my swoop and let him know that while there are canopies in the air, the swooplane is stricktly off limits..
I don't think this has anything to do with right of way. The swooper aimed for the person holding the camera. That's natural. It's like a magnetic force or something. Sometimes I'll set myself up in the landing area with a telephoto lens in a place where I expect to get a good shot of someone swooping. But noooo, he's gonna aim right for me. By the time he's landing, all I can see through the camera is his nose. The lesson here is to land far enough from the camera to get a nice picture. Not too far, not too close. 
Dave
skybytch 273
In life (skydiving or otherwise) I say pipe up and say something otherwise I guess it wasn’t that important. I’m never sure what’s accomplished by giving the cold shoulder. What happens if they run in to you next time? Are you going to yell at them from not understanding your silent and subtle form of communication.
I didn't say anything for several reasons. I'm often not at my most diplomatic after such things happen so it's usually best that I keep my mouth shut. Also, I saw his facial expression. I don't think he intended to be as close as he was. I saw no need to reinforce the lesson with words. And finally, he was there with several others from his home dz. I'm pretty sure it was discussed amongst them.
The rest of his landings that I saw that day were a safe distance from anybody else.
Again, I didn't post this to beat on him. Shit happens, even the best make mistakes. We live, we learn. If we're smart, part of that learning can come from the experiences of others. That's what I'm trying to do here - share what happened to me and hope that people think again and again about safety in the landing area.
On those competitons did he have to dodge people occupying on the swooplane ? (in this case most likely swoop pond) If he did, was he totally ok with people ruining his run ?
Actually that happened to a NUMBER of competitors at the last PST. We had tandems flying over the swoop course. Fortunately no-one had to bail but it was certainly distracting and unnecessary. However, every single one of them was ready to bail if they needed to.
I sense you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
If this turns into a flame fest, I'm going to have to lock the thread.
Performance Designs Factory Team
BMFin 0
Your arrogance on this subject goes a long way to show why an unfortunately large portion of the skydiving community views swoopers as reckless, inconsiderate and dangerous.
Dear AdamT,
I feel quite the same way about your attitude towards this subject. Not making clear boundaries between swooping areas and non swooping areas has resulted many in air and on the ground collisions in the past. Not making clear to people that they are to keep away from the landing zone unless they have business there will do even more so. (not to even mention about keeping the swoop lane clear of outsiders)
It is exactly because of negleting these safety precautions has resulted many DZ´s in the US to ban swooping as a whole.
You seem to think it is totally ok for people to wonder around a swooping area and it is the swoopers duty to dodge who ever feels like walking on the swoop lane.
I do not think like this at all !!
I think No extra people should be allowed on any landing area unless they have a good reason for it. And definetly not on the swoop lane.
At competitions there will often be people in the pond, camera men, chowed competitors. Guess whose job it is not to hit them, the person flying. And if i did run my dumb ass into someone I would apologize.
If you willingly take part in a competiton where people are filming you in the water, and you have the risk of hitting them, then you are willingly taking the risk and most likely (i hope) also the cameraman knows what he is getting into. Then it is between you and the other partys involved. You are free to act as you wish.
So that when i do have to abort or alter my trajectory because of someone or something I will be able to do so safely, just like i always have in the past, and get on with my day. As opposed to lying broken in a hospital bed pointing fingers and placing blame.
As I have already said before, I also think it is best to abort your swoop if you dont feel you can do it safely. The real question is: what can I do to stop this person making people to abort their swoops for no reason in the future...
Your arrogance on this subject goes a long way to show why an unfortunately large portion of the skydiving community views swoopers as reckless, inconsiderate and dangerous. I normally don't post here but i felt the need to speak up because attitudes like the one you are presenting can have a negative impact on all of us who love to swoop. You are flying the wing, it is your responsibility not to run into things regardless of whether or not those things are supposed to be there.
At competitions there will often be people in the pond, camera men, chowed competitors. Guess whose job it is not to hit them, the person flying. And if i did run my dumb ass into someone I would apologize. I will leave this thread now and go practice controlled and accurate high speed canopy flight. So that when i do have to abort or alter my trajectory because of someone or something I will be able to do so safely, just like i always have in the past, and get on with my day. As opposed to lying broken in a hospital bed pointing fingers and placing blame.
100% spot on.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
You seem to think it is totally ok for people to wonder around a swooping area and it is the swoopers duty to dodge who ever feels like walking on the swoop lane.
I do not think like this at all !!
I think No extra people should be allowed on any landing area unless they have a good reason for it. And definetly not on the swoop lane.
Not true, I don't think anyone is saying that. What we ARE saying is that IF someone IS there, it's the PILOTS responsibilty to behave/fly in a safe manner that's within their skill set.
Whether the obstacle in question SHOULD be that at all is an entirely different discussion.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
skybytch 273
If you willingly take part in a competiton where people are filming you in the water, and you have the risk of hitting them, then you are willingly taking the risk and most likely (i hope) also the cameraman knows what he is getting into. Then it is between you and the other partys involved. You are free to act as you wish.
If you willingly jump with other people at a public dropzone, you have an obligation to share the air and the landing area with whoever happens to be using it - whether that's another jumper, someone with a camera, a tandem passenger, a balloon, whoever. By jumping at a public dropzone you are willingly taking on the risk that somebody might be where you want to go.
If you can't accept that you shouldn't jump with other people.
What it comes down to is this...
we try to set up swoop lanes and call it our play area...
we separate this from the other landing areas to help with traffic problems
does this mean that we can brazenly hit people that are in the area regardless of whether they are supposed to be there or not?
of course not it would hurt us...oh yeah and them....
Dave
we try to set up swoop lanes and call it our play area...
we separate this from the other landing areas to help with traffic problems
does this mean that we can brazenly hit people that are in the area regardless of whether they are supposed to be there or not?
of course not it would hurt us...oh yeah and them....
Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
BMFin 0
Not true, I don't think anyone is saying that. What we ARE saying is that IF someone IS there, it's the PILOTS responsibilty to behave/fly in a safe manner that's within their skill set.
YES exactly I agree !!! As I already said many times before in this case ABORT your swoop.
Whether the obstacle in question SHOULD be that at all is an entirely different discussion.
Blues,
Ian
It is exactly this same discussion. What I have been trying to say over and over is that swoop lane is a place for swoopers. No extra people there.
This way the swoopers are safe and this way the spectators are safe..
In my opinion, the only time a "swooper" should be swooping directly at a camera person, is if it was pre planned.
For example: setting up for a specific shot. Other than that, doing so is very dangerous for everyone. Whether its' a camera man/woman or just a friend on the ground, suprising someone in this way is dangerous and some would consider "reckless" piloting.
Swooping is having a hard enough time right now....
Swoopers are the pilots in control, period. Based on self preservation I would not unexpectedly swoop at someone.
If your "swooping" skills are not up to par, as well as your judgement, then go "swoop" in a different area until you "skills" are up to par.
Thats all... I really don't think there was much to "debate" on this topic, for those who "really" understood the actual circumstances.
No need to argue, just seek solutions, to avoid injuries or worse.
K
frost 1
Seems that everyone here is arguing about the same thing. Some say "it's green", others are saying "no way! it's definitely flat!"
If there is an obstacle - it's pilots responsibility to avoid it. While true, it's a REACTIVE solution. A PROACTIVE solution would be not having people in the landing area in the first place.
So while you're out there practicing controlled and accurate high speed canopy flight, educate other people where they should and should not be so that you dont have to use your object avoidance skills. Now THAT would be responsible and safe swooper's actions.
If there is an obstacle - it's pilots responsibility to avoid it. While true, it's a REACTIVE solution. A PROACTIVE solution would be not having people in the landing area in the first place.
So while you're out there practicing controlled and accurate high speed canopy flight, educate other people where they should and should not be so that you dont have to use your object avoidance skills. Now THAT would be responsible and safe swooper's actions.
murps2000 86
In Reply To
Your arrogance on this subject goes a long way to show why an unfortunately large portion of the skydiving community views swoopers as reckless, inconsiderate and dangerous.
Dear AdamT,
I feel quite the same way about your attitude towards this subject. Not making clear boundaries between swooping areas and non swooping areas has resulted many in air and on the ground collisions in the past. Not making clear to people that they are to keep away from the landing zone unless they have business there will do even more so. (not to even mention about keeping the swoop lane clear of outsiders)
It is exactly because of negleting these safety precautions has resulted many DZ´s in the US to ban swooping as a whole.
You seem to think it is totally ok for people to wonder around a swooping area and it is the swoopers duty to dodge who ever feels like walking on the swoop lane.
I do not think like this at all !!
I think No extra people should be allowed on any landing area unless they have a good reason for it. And definetly not on the swoop lane.
***
Before you make a post like this you should do a few things.
First go jump at Davis and see the very well defined swoop lane. You will likely note that whether someone is standing nearby or not, you'd better hit the gates, and you'd better be in control.
Second, while you're there, see how totally cool Lisa is for shooting stills and video of people landing. I always got the impression that for the most part she was doing it to help people improve their landings.
Third, (and this is where you really screwed up) meet Adam before insinuating any arrogance on his part. You'd be hard pressed to find a skydiver with a higher skill to arrogance ratio. Poor guy. I can picture him shaking his head at his computer. He probably won't post again for a while, and so many people on this site could benefit from his knowledge and perspective.
I've heard a saying before: When in a hole, stop digging.
Swooping, like skydiving, or driving for that matter, is a privilege, not a right. You have no right of way over anyone standing on the ground.
Your arrogance on this subject goes a long way to show why an unfortunately large portion of the skydiving community views swoopers as reckless, inconsiderate and dangerous.
Dear AdamT,
I feel quite the same way about your attitude towards this subject. Not making clear boundaries between swooping areas and non swooping areas has resulted many in air and on the ground collisions in the past. Not making clear to people that they are to keep away from the landing zone unless they have business there will do even more so. (not to even mention about keeping the swoop lane clear of outsiders)
It is exactly because of negleting these safety precautions has resulted many DZ´s in the US to ban swooping as a whole.
You seem to think it is totally ok for people to wonder around a swooping area and it is the swoopers duty to dodge who ever feels like walking on the swoop lane.
I do not think like this at all !!
I think No extra people should be allowed on any landing area unless they have a good reason for it. And definetly not on the swoop lane.
***
Before you make a post like this you should do a few things.
First go jump at Davis and see the very well defined swoop lane. You will likely note that whether someone is standing nearby or not, you'd better hit the gates, and you'd better be in control.
Second, while you're there, see how totally cool Lisa is for shooting stills and video of people landing. I always got the impression that for the most part she was doing it to help people improve their landings.
Third, (and this is where you really screwed up) meet Adam before insinuating any arrogance on his part. You'd be hard pressed to find a skydiver with a higher skill to arrogance ratio. Poor guy. I can picture him shaking his head at his computer. He probably won't post again for a while, and so many people on this site could benefit from his knowledge and perspective.
I've heard a saying before: When in a hole, stop digging.
Swooping, like skydiving, or driving for that matter, is a privilege, not a right. You have no right of way over anyone standing on the ground.
BMFin 0
Ok murps !
I´ll do my best to visit davis. During that time I will try to find this AdamT and apologise if I ever hurt his feelings. I hope he will feel better soon and start posting here again..
In the mean while, lets try keep the swoop lanes clear of any obstacles !
Safe swoops,
Ville
I´ll do my best to visit davis. During that time I will try to find this AdamT and apologise if I ever hurt his feelings. I hope he will feel better soon and start posting here again..
In the mean while, lets try keep the swoop lanes clear of any obstacles !
Safe swoops,
Ville
adamT 0
:)
No feelings should be hurt, and I would never argue against clearly designated landing areas and efforts to keep said areas clear. But if you chose to fly you must take responsibility for the path you take.
No feelings should be hurt, and I would never argue against clearly designated landing areas and efforts to keep said areas clear. But if you chose to fly you must take responsibility for the path you take.
You've been on dropzones longer than today, yes?
By now you know that there is a difference between skydivers that "get it" and "uncontrolled projectiles".
I love people to take shots of my swoops, so don't get discouraged, but...
If you are in the landing area you are an obstacle.
Obviously you are aware of this cause you ducked...
I think you can easily say something to someone that almost hits you, but you can expect an answer, because you were the object.
This discussion might be endless.
My advise would be to not make a bigger deal out of it than it is. There was a dangerous situation, but someone took action so nothing happened.
Neither of you will say the other one is right, the most you can get is to agree you disagree.
Just go back with your camera and make nice shots, and pay extra attention to this guy and other people you don't know very well.
It's all supposed to be fun!
By now you know that there is a difference between skydivers that "get it" and "uncontrolled projectiles".
I love people to take shots of my swoops, so don't get discouraged, but...
If you are in the landing area you are an obstacle.
Obviously you are aware of this cause you ducked...
I think you can easily say something to someone that almost hits you, but you can expect an answer, because you were the object.
This discussion might be endless.
My advise would be to not make a bigger deal out of it than it is. There was a dangerous situation, but someone took action so nothing happened.
Neither of you will say the other one is right, the most you can get is to agree you disagree.
Just go back with your camera and make nice shots, and pay extra attention to this guy and other people you don't know very well.
It's all supposed to be fun!
"Don't make me come down there" - God.
My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio
My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio
Bolas 5
In any situation there are people who are/were clueless or will actually admit to making a mistake. Those are the ones you can help be safer.
I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If they start making excuses, get argumentative, overly defensive, or just don't seem to understand that's when I just walk away.
My personal rule is if I feel we just avoided some sort of accident only due to one or both of us being "heads up" a quick discussion on how we can avoid that next time needs to occur.
How productive it is depends on the attitude of both jumpers.
I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If they start making excuses, get argumentative, overly defensive, or just don't seem to understand that's when I just walk away.
My personal rule is if I feel we just avoided some sort of accident only due to one or both of us being "heads up" a quick discussion on how we can avoid that next time needs to occur.
How productive it is depends on the attitude of both jumpers.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
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