autoset 0 #1 April 21, 2007 ...and you executed the hook turn in order to gain speed too close to the ground(uh..oh...) and you realized right after the speed turn that you were going to impact with the ground if you continued with the plan... Question: Would pulling the toggles all the way down(without stalling the canopy) help slow you down enough to ease the impact? I'm a student myself and personally don't like doing agressive stuff while under canopy, but watching really cool videos of you people swooping like crazy it brings that question to my mind. Would pulling the toggles help even when attempting a hook turn your canopy is practically perpendicular to the ground? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #2 April 21, 2007 At that point you better do whatever you can to save your ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #3 April 21, 2007 You could always pray... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #4 April 21, 2007 Quote Would pulling the toggles help even when attempting a hook turn your canopy is practically perpendicular to the ground? at least enough to live hopefully, and I am living proof of that I hopped away from a bad hook turn with only a broken fibula if I hadnt wailed on both my toggles like my life depended on it I most likely would be a dead man instead of doing the dead man... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #5 April 21, 2007 when you do it like that flaring just changes your impact point. its better to not fuck up in the first place bsbd keith .The skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #6 April 21, 2007 absolutely. worth repeating. absolutely the only thought in your head in any out of control maneuver is to keep flying the brakes until you are at a dead stop. hoefully you are not dead, just your speed. even if you strike something and pop up keep flying the canopies brakes. rear risers are NEVER the option for low turns. check out superstu's carnage video on skydiving movies. there is a good scene where luke smoked the water and flipped through his canopy but he totally continued his flare and it definitely eased the second impact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamie_smoove 0 #7 April 21, 2007 Why wouldnt you use risers?? Wouldnt that help change the angle of attack of the canopy, and therefore help "pull up" out of the dive?? Just exploring the principles of flight theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #8 April 21, 2007 QuoteWhy wouldnt you use risers?? Wouldnt that help change the angle of attack of the canopy, and therefore help "pull up" out of the dive?? Just exploring the principles of flight theory. You need hard and fast input in an emergency situation. You hit your rear risers that deep and you seriously risk a high speed stall. Your canopy will stall at a MUCH higher speed when using riser inputs. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #9 April 21, 2007 Quote Why wouldnt you use risers?? Wouldnt that help change the angle of attack of the canopy, and therefore help "pull up" out of the dive?? Just exploring the principles of flight theory. ask canuckinusa what happens when you rear riser stall at high speeds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #10 April 22, 2007 Quoterear risers are NEVER the option for low turns. What he said. Did it, Learned it, never repeated it. Toggles in emergency... but ideally don't be in the situation. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #11 April 22, 2007 QuoteWhy wouldnt you use risers?? Wouldnt that help change the angle of attack of the canopy, and therefore help "pull up" out of the dive?? Just exploring the principles of flight theory. risers on most elliptical canopies takes a bit longer to bring you out of dive...toggles will bring you back to level flight quickest... I suggest you read Brian Germains Book. http://www.bigairsportz.com Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #12 April 22, 2007 Quoterear risers are NEVER the option for low turns. I use a combo of rears harness to carve myself out sometimes...but I have to realize it early enough otherwise I have to go straight to toggles Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #13 April 23, 2007 Quote Quote Why wouldnt you use risers?? Wouldnt that help change the angle of attack of the canopy, and therefore help "pull up" out of the dive?? Just exploring the principles of flight theory. ask canuckinusa what happens when you rear riser stall at high speeds You hurt yourself, that's what happens. 1) Fly a canopy type/size appropriate for your skill level, experience and knowledge level. 2) Fly that canopy within the limits of your skill, experience and knowledge level. 3) Try your best NOT to be in the corner. 4) If you are in the corner, don't dig out on rears, use your toggles. 5) Never give up, keep flying the canopy no matter what. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #14 April 23, 2007 >Would pulling the toggles all the way down(without stalling the canopy) >help slow you down enough to ease the impact? Yes. A few notes: 1) It is much easier to dig out of front riser turns than toggle turns - but unfortunately some people still do toggle turns to set up their HP landings. After a toggle turn, the canopy has been slowed, and is recovering its speed. During the time when it's flying slower, toggles are very ineffective. 2) B Germain has a good explanation of this sort of recovery in his book. Basically you have to do two things very quickly and accurately - get the wing back over your head and start flaring. After a turn, the canopy will almost always be off to one side. If you flare hard without correcting that, the lift you will generate will pull you in that direction and not decelerate you as much. You have to be able to instantly get the canopy back over your head and flare at the same time, but not so hard that you stall the canopy. It is a very good idea to practice this skill before you need it. 3) It should go without saying that you should also be setting up to do a PLF as you are recovering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #15 April 23, 2007 Quote>2) B Germain has a good explanation of this sort of recovery in his book. Basically you have to do two things very quickly and accurately - get the wing back over your head and start flaring. After a turn, the canopy will almost always be off to one side. If you flare hard without correcting that, the lift you will generate will pull you in that direction and not decelerate you as much. You have to be able to instantly get the canopy back over your head and flare at the same time, but not so hard that you stall the canopy. It is a very good idea to practice this skill before you need it. Good Post bill.... Another good thing to note is that if you spend the time learning different angle turns on your way to larger turns you will realize what the start of your release of turning input should be and you will realize that sometimes you set up for a 270 and can start the recovery not at 270 and then carve the turn around to proper landing direction. Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #16 April 23, 2007 Quoteyou will realize what the start of your release of turning input should be and you will realize that sometimes you set up for a 270 and can start the recovery not at 270 and then carve the turn around to proper landing direction. I'm trying to understand your notes, do you mean releasing your input before a 270 is completed as a bail out? thanks Lou Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swooopa-x 0 #17 April 24, 2007 xactly. ther shouldnt be obstacles in that area tho or you'll have no 'out'People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #18 April 24, 2007 absolutely...Its called saving yourself and your swoop at the same time... I have bailed out of my front risers and completed my turn using a shallower turn rate before whether it be harness or a combination of harness and rear risers... it allows one to bail out of their front riser turn and complete the turn using the shallower turn rate of a harness turn or a rear riser turn and still have a nice swoop.... saturday I actually was high on a turn so for fun I over rotated my turn and carved it out using first rears and then offset toggles to start the turn with a big carve to get on the proper agreed landing direction. If you are starting swooping get a coach and or get Brain Germain or Scott miller or Flight 1 or someone to teach you more... Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #19 April 24, 2007 3) Try your best NOT to be in the corner. 4) If you are in the corner, don't dig out on rears, use your toggles. Yes I have two new ligaments in my left knee to back this up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #20 April 24, 2007 Quote 3) Try your best NOT to be in the corner. 4) If you are in the corner, don't dig out on rears, use your toggles. Yes I have two new ligaments in my left knee to back this up. how far are you along to becoming the million dollar man Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 April 24, 2007 Quote Yes I have two new ligaments in my left knee to back this up. I hope the prices were as greatful as the punishment can be. I seem to be in da same game. I have bounced back twice from the ground but it was soft so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #22 April 25, 2007 short answer: you may recover a turn too low with toggle input. long answer: There is a point of no return, where you are too low or too late with the toggles to dig yourself out, and you are going to hit...at that point it's time to start prioritizing parts of your body you want to save, start with the head and move down from there. Also, if you think you can pull it off on rears, there are plenty of videos on skydivingmovies.com that can show you what that looks like. People hanging on their rear risers waiting for a change in the picture that ain't coming... Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #23 April 25, 2007 Lots of spare parts, but non are bionic. I have No View Finder in my head or Engine Block I can curl. If you get this joke your'e my age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #24 April 25, 2007 hehe Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
