Swoopers vs. Non-Swoopers in the Pattern

[yjumpinoz 0]

If that is the case, how does someone learn the basic skills it takes to avoid obstacles when landing out or how to save yourself when you screw up? Don't get me wrong, I like to do high performance landings, but I don't own the sky. I avoid them when doing big-ways. Common sense.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

How about using an alternate landing area and if one doesn't exist how about doing hop n' pops and/or high pulls. If myself as a swooper had to use hop n' pops and high pulls to learn my skill, why can't the common non-swooper do the same to learn these skills you speak of. Why the hypocricy?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[yjumpinoz 0]

Another scenerio. If I am doing a conservative straight in approach, and have to slide over bit to avoid a jumper walking in and I get plowed by a swooper, is it my fault. I think not.

[yjumpinoz 0]

So now we need an alternate landing area for straight in approaches, students, HP landings, accuracy, and people scared to get ran over?

[davelepka 4]

  Quote

It would be great if some of the respected members of the Swooping Comunity could help devise solutions before any regulatory folks get involved.

How about this, you want to swoop, you are 100% responsible for everything you do. If you want to swoop you have to be faster and smarter, and plan ahead better than everyone else. Period.

Here's what everyone is missing. All this discussion is the result of recent accidents. That's right accidents. Even if we come up with separate landing areas, separate jump runs, this rule and that rule, accidents will still happen.

Nothing will ever change the fact that if you want to go big, you have to be ready to cover ALL of your bases. You're the only one in control of your canopy, and if you can't operate in a sky full of retards, than skydiving isn't for you.

The canopies are top of the line, the goal is the longest, fastest sickest swoop ever, and keeping with that theme, the pilot has got to be just as good.

That said, these recent accidents are stupid, and could have been avoided somehow.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Just a side note, but I'd like to point out that a LOT of the issues we're discussing here can be avoided with proper attention to levels. If we all do our part and give each other enough room vertically (think how many times there are 5 or more canopies about to touch down) a lot of these things become moot points.

IMO ALL PILOTS should be actively flying their vertical and horizontal seperation from opening until landing.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[yjumpinoz 0]

amen

[CanuckInUSA 0]

  Quote

Another scenerio. If I am doing a conservative straight in approach, and have to slide over bit to avoid a jumper walking in and I get plowed by a swooper, is it my fault. I think not.

I don’t expect you to know my history and know my views on swooping. But I am not a big fan of flying highly loaded cross-braced canopies swooping in highly congested traffic areas for this exact reason. When I was jumping a Sabre2 and/or Crossfire2 and I was learning to swoop, it wasn’t as big of an issue. But now that I’m on a highly loaded cross-braced canopy, I’m just coming in way too fast to be able to react to all scenarios. I know I’ve got tons of control and can turn to avoid some objects (I am a competitive swooper so I know how to carve a turn through a course). But I’m not all that, I’m not a full time skydiver and I’ve got a long way to go before you’ll ever confuse myself with a world class swooper. Plus you only need to look at my logbook(s) to see that the vast majority of my last 900 skydives have been hop n’ pops and high pulls. In fact I know I’ve disappointed other skydivers in the past when I informed them that I couldn’t do a freefall jump with them because I was working on my canopy control. What can I say? I have my goals, it’s my 20+ dollars and I prefer to spend my time under canopy than in freefall. But I’m only one person, there are others who feel differently.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[yjumpinoz 0]

I have complete respect for people who dedicate themselves to get as good as possible at any discipline. It just gets me that people behind and above me have that much control in my life.

[dharma1976 0]

  Quote

IMO ALL PILOTS should be actively flying their vertical and horizontal seperation from opening until landing.

Damn Skippy...

Now the fun part comes in...explaining to people who dont want to listen why they have to do it

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[yardhippie 0]

  Quote

  Quote

IMO ALL PILOTS should be actively flying their vertical and horizontal seperation from opening until landing.

Damn Skippy...

Now the fun part comes in...explaining to people who dont want to listen why they have to do it

Dave

Well to put it in time constraints.
Say you have a King Air with a full load (14)
On that load is a 4 way belly, a 3 way belly , 2 - 2 way freefly, and a tandem with video. A fairly average load for our DZ. Given a 6-7 second separation (please lets not get into the separation argument here) The first belly group opens in approximately 60 seconds, say at 3500 feet (im using rounding to make life easier) the second group at say 67 seconds of the first groups exit. The third (being a freefly), takes 55 seconds from exit putting them 69 seconds since the first exit. then the next group at 76 seconds. So only 16 seconds separates the openings of the first group and the last. I am omitting the videographer in this case.
Given a mix of canopy sizes throughout all groups, were talking maybe 500- 1000 feet of separation between the first openers and the last.

If the lightly loaded canopys didnt perform an radical altitude deminishing manuvers, and the HP canopies flew full flight, braked, or rear riser approaches, the highly loaded guys are still gonna get down faster.
So you have your play ground somewhere near where you'd enter the downwind leg. Being an alert canopy pilot you recognize the smaller and/or larger canopies, and adjust your flight (braked, full, or risers) appropriately as you entered the downwind leg.

I know as soon as I open and get my stuff stowed, Im looking for whos below me, who hanging in brakes, whos spiraling down to my level or past, and doing my damdest to adjust my flight to accomodate all those in the pattern. If theres someone below me and my swoop is unsafe, i'll adjust my patter to fall in with the other traffic and abort the swoop. So be it. I'll live to make another.

My point being: We have a matter of seconds between first and last openers. If we are all aware of the prescribed landing pattern for that DZ, AND we pay as much attention to flying our wings as we do pulling on time. We can surely reduce the amount of accidents that happen.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Spizzzarko 0]

Yawn...

I tend to see things in a fairly simplistic manner like Ian does on this issue. No matter what canopy you are flying or your experience level you have an obligation to NOT come into contact with another person in the pattern. Not every landing has to be an event. If you are wanting to do a massive turn then land out or, adjust you pattern location, or adjust your pattern entry timing Pretty simple if you ask me.

On the other hand, when we do think about patterns it is not the same for everyone. My pattern is going to be dramatically different than some dude on a lightly loaded stilletto or sabre 2. My pattern will also be different than the dude on the student canopy or evn the guy on the lightning doing a 90 degree front riser turn at 12' to build up some speed to land the damn thing. So enforcing a pattern altitude probably would be a draconian measure for this issue. Don't get me wrong, patterns are good, but they are not the total answer to this problem.

I honestly think that there is no reason to be landing in traffic if you are doing more than a 90. Have I done it in the past? Yes. Will I probably do it in the future? That answer depends on the amount of traffic and who the traffic is. I'm not so hard up for swooping that I HAVE to do a 450 on every jump. Flexability is the key to airpower people, and I'm so flexable that the hari krisna yoga guru mofo doesn't have shit on me!

[rehmwa 2]

  Quote

Another scenerio. If I am doing a conservative straight in approach, and have to slide over bit to avoid a jumper walking in and I get plowed by a swooper, is it my fault. I think not.

swooping dedicated areas should certainly be farthest from the packing area (or situated such) that people don't walk through the higher speed landing lane - won't happen though. experienced people like to land near the door/tent/shelter

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[frost 1]

  Quote

We are pretty rational at our DZ.

Do you guys still put RW groups that open @ 2-2.5K AFTER FF groups most of whom open at 3.5? :)

[dharma1976 0]

I agree...in fact I bailed on a 270 on NYE to do a 90 cause there was traffic....

on a side note spizzy the FX doesnt like the extra weight I put on since I quit smoking cigarettes...

:-P

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[hparrish 0]

  Quote

Yawn...

I tend to see things in a fairly simplistic manner like Ian does on this issue. No matter what canopy you are flying or your experience level you have an obligation to NOT come into contact with another person in the pattern. Not every landing has to be an event. If you are wanting to do a massive turn then land out or, adjust you pattern location, or adjust your pattern entry timing Pretty simple if you ask me.

On the other hand, when we do think about patterns it is not the same for everyone. My pattern is going to be dramatically different than some dude on a lightly loaded stilletto or sabre 2. My pattern will also be different than the dude on the student canopy or evn the guy on the lightning doing a 90 degree front riser turn at 12' to build up some speed to land the damn thing. So enforcing a pattern altitude probably would be a draconian measure for this issue. Don't get me wrong, patterns are good, but they are not the total answer to this problem.

I honestly think that there is no reason to be landing in traffic if you are doing more than a 90. Have I done it in the past? Yes. Will I probably do it in the future? That answer depends on the amount of traffic and who the traffic is. I'm not so hard up for swooping that I HAVE to do a 450 on every jump. Flexability is the key to airpower people, and I'm so flexable that the hari krisna yoga guru mofo doesn't have shit on me!

Well Said..........Kind of the point I was trying to make earlier. You definately said it more clearly.

[hparrish 0]

  Quote

  Quote

We are pretty rational at our DZ.

Do you guys still put RW groups that open @ 2-2.5K AFTER FF groups most of whom open at 3.5? :)

Yes FF still exists first at CSS, shouldnt matter with a Cross Wind Jump Run. Thats a separate discussion. This thread has been hijacked enough.

[marks 0]

how many of you have been to a BIG DZ where thay had 2 landing areas?

I always seek out the swooper area, not just because I am swooping, but because it ALWAYS seems to be the safest place to land, for ANYONE!..

I wonder why that is?

[frost 1]

  Quote

Thats a separate discussion.

Not necessarily. One might disagree, since most of those old timers fly the erratic S-turn patterns on big squares and quite a few FF fly higher performance stuff
and set ups.

May be there is something to be said about exit order, group separation and canopy flight RIGHT AFTER opening, not JUST the final 30 seconds of flight which is what most of the discussion has been focused on, it seems. As we all know, there is a bigger picture.

It takes a LOT of variables for two objects to be in the same airspace at exactly the same time to cause a collision. What put these two in that airspace at that moment in time?

The question I asked in the incident thread: were these guys in the same exit group?

Just a few things that come to mind:
Was it improper exit order or separation?
Was it actions under canopy, like spiraling or diving to lose altitude?
Was it inability of the more experienced jumper to keep an eye on the canopies ahead of him?

Could group order-spacing based on wing loading be helpful here?

Could these close calls (and this accident in particular) be avoided if only a few actions right after the exit of the first guy were changed?

Please do not take this post as any kind of a negative comment. Just thinking out loud.

[yjumpinoz 0]

The last thirty seconds is when the mistake causes death. I have had plenty of fabric around me doing CRW up high. No big deal. Low big deal. Doing 270's at a boogie in the "normal" landing area probably is not a good idea.

[frost 1]

you missed my point completely

[yjumpinoz 0]

Us old RW guys do fly smaller canopies and do HP landings. Not sure how organizing the load to wing loading would work. I agree that the separation is the issue, but IMO it is the flying not the exit that causes it. Maintain separation vertical and horizontal.

[hparrish 0]

  Quote

how many of you have been to a BIG DZ where thay had 2 landing areas?

I always seek out the swooper area, not just because I am swooping, but because it ALWAYS seems to be the safest place to land, for ANYONE!..

I wonder why that is?

Ha!!! Unless I'm there making big splashes in your Pond.

[twnsnd 1]

  Quote

if you can't operate in a sky full of retards, than skydiving isn't for you.

This really covers everyting. I want to put this as my new signature quote.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[dharma1976 0]

not if I do first

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.